From gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch Thu Nov 15 11:08:51 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 15 Nov 2001 19:08:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 45871 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 19:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2001 19:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta2n.bluewin.ch) (195.186.1.211) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 19:08:51 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (62.202.34.33) by mta2n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.0.032) id 3BF39E950002C4F2 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:08:42 +0100 Message-ID: <003e01c16e08$bb0bf000$2122ca3e@oemcomputer> To: References: <1005830104.630.87480.m12@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Auxlang sentences and lujvo Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 19:35:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "G. Dyke" X-Yahoo-Profile: gregvdyke X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 12179 > >2. This drink is for children. > > **What *does* this sentence mean xod: I think it means le'e pinxe be ti cu verba ** zo le'e ki'a .iku'i.ui lo'u cu verba le'u zo'o lei cmamlatu pu kelci ca'o le donri vi'a le solgu'i **No, lei would mean that they were playing together, which the english does not say, I stick with le > >4. There is a group of large trees in my garden. > >6. "Do you remember exactly what you said?" > > xu do morji le se cusku ba'ucu'i be do .. I think there is better, but I > haven't quite understood all the du'u sedu'u et al. How about xu do satci morji le do pu selsku **nooop you can either remember or not, the satci must qualify what is remembered (but then w/ what I just said, I must conclude that no semantic abiguity results from your sentence : it's ok) Jay I was thinking {xu do morji co satci da poi fa do cusku} makes for a nice (non-concise) translation. **morji co satci is good Lee: Seems like an interesting exercise. 1. The big house was full of books. Don't see much interesting here: *{le barda zdadi'u pu culno lo xelcku} **loi... they must be mighty books if the house is full of each of them... *{ti verba selpinxe}, *ie 3. The little cats played all day in the sun. I think the idiom "sun play" is natural here too, since it really specifies a kind of play rather that simply saying that they were playing under the sun (which doesn't really say anything): **quite where else *could* they be playing *{le cmalu mlatu pu solri kelci ze'e le djedi} ** djedi certainly isn't correct, being a full day, maybe ca'o le soldei 5. They will soon bring us fresher cakes and maybe warm milk. *{tu bazi bevri fi ma'a fe lo vifmau titynanba .e ju'o lo glare ladru} **any reason for following the english word-order?, ju'o is certainty, try ju'ocu'i Rob: What possible justification is there to coin a lujvo for "is a drink for children"? Is there some highly specific place structure you hope to get out of it? If not, what's wrong with {verba se pinxe}, which is not only easier to read but _shorter_? **.ie The only reason is that it was shorter originally... -- la rab.spir noi na sarji le nu duskemjvozba gi'e na ka'e bacru zo duskemjvozba **I don't either but I have no difficulty pronouncing it Craig: >> * Create a lujvo because you need to, not because you can. This would >> probably arise from wanting a short word to express a common concept, >> needing a specific place structure that only a lujvo could give you, >> or possibly needing to express something where only a single word will >> fit. >I have come around to thinking that fluent speakers, who knew all the >rafsi would systematically compress nonce tanru into lujvo. I find myself >doing this with the few rafsi I know. I disagree. A fluent speaker would know the difference in meaning between the tanru and the lujvo. The lujvo would have a precise meaning and place structure, generally given by the seljvajvo rules. The tanru would be a beautifully vague but extremely expressive means of expressing an open-ended or somewhat atypical idea. Rather than looking for the exact right word to use, I expect a native lojbanistani to produce a long stream of gismu which together express their idea in an almsot poetic way. **I have come to the conclusion that lujvo place structures na ka'e se glorkena I also believe that my usage at any rate will compress any tanru I happen to know the rafsi of into a tanru. lujvo seem mainly to get used with a gadri in front. **I would like to defend my recent lujvo's by saying that I wanted to beat the hell out of esperanto on *their* ground (they loose hands down on ours) >Please try to create meaningful subject headers. **sorry (It's rather ironic, I can't stand "digest 2093" or "two questions" either) Greg