From araizen@newmail.net Sat Dec 15 18:12:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: araizen@newmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 16 Dec 2001 02:12:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 99222 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:12:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2001 02:12:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO enigma.barak.net.il) (212.150.48.99) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2001 02:12:13 -0000 Received: from out.newmail.net ([10.10.11.11]) by enigma.barak.net.il (InterMail vK.4.03.00.00 201-232-121 license 5444ddd44659357c6c93343e0ce38507) with SMTP id <20011216021256.REBE1225.enigma@out.newmail.net> for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 04:12:56 +0200 Received: from default ([62.0.182.71]) by out.newmail.net ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 04:12:58 +0200 Message-ID: <00a601c1863d$747d99c0$47b6003e@default> To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] Logical translation request Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:47:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Adam Raizen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=3063669 X-Yahoo-Profile: araizen X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 12634 la xorxes. cusku di'e > la adam cusku di'e > > > > caku le se zukte pu simlu le ka lojdra > > > >Just so that we can understand you, do you intend to use 'caku', > >'ni'aku', etc. with the meaning 'ca da', 'ni'a da', etc., > > {ca zo'e}, {ni'a zo'e}, etc, yes. > > >instead of > >'now', 'under me', etc.? > > Why instead? {ca zo'e} very often will correspond to 'now', > but in this case it couldn't, as the whole bridi is set in > the past! It can only be "then", or "the 'now' of that time", > if you prefer. Well, ch. 10, section 2 says (talking about "va"), "What is this event at a medium distance from? The speaker's location.", in addition to similar hints all over that chapter. The default of all tenses is the speaker, normally you need 'ki' to change that, and only BAI, really, has a default of "zo'e". I've sometimes wanted to change the interpretation to how you do it, but need to be able to say "now", etc. is too important. It would take a complete reworking of the tenses to really get it good. For now I think we have to use "ca zo'e" for "then". I suppose it's a question of interpretation of sentences like "ca le nu mi penmi do kei mi pu klama le zarci". English would interpret it as "When I met you, I went to the store." (i.e., the two events are coincident in time). Maybe Lojban should interpret the "ca" as redefining the reference-point, and thus the sentence should be "When I met/will meet you, I had gone/will have gone to the store." But then, how would you get the first interpretation back? (that they're coincident in time, and they take place in the past.) > >It might be a good change, but it's > >counter-baseline. > > I don't think so. I hope that the baseline doesn't say that > {caku} always means 'now'. It couldn't always work, as in > this example. Well, you can always say "ca zo'e" otherwise. mu'o mi'e .adam.