From pycyn@aol.com Wed Dec 12 07:16:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_2); 12 Dec 2001 15:16:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 95963 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2001 15:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2001 15:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2001 15:15:37 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id r.13e.6179717 (18708) for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:15:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13e.6179717.2948ce94@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:15:32 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] Logical translation request To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_13e.6179717.2948ce94_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=2455001 X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 12583 --part1_13e.6179717.2948ce94_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/2001 8:02:13 AM Central Standard Time, phma@oltronics.net writes: > After hearing the suggestions of others, I settled on {ca lenu co'e le se > zukte cu simlu le ka racli}. How does that sound? > Better, but I wonder about the se racli, the standard. I don't like the lujvo that go into all of the details (which Cherlin has provided) but something more than "sane" or even "rational" seems called for to deal with choosing the highest scoring in a dispassionate evaluation of options in a situation. I wonder if {prije} (well, {se prije}) might not be useful here for its inclusion of an evaluative component as well as a rational one. Part of the trouble is that the notional area this deals with is not well explored -- certainly in Lojban but also in English. {logji} is strictly about the means by which a conclusion is reached (really strictly it does not even require that that method be a "good" one, only that it be a specifiable method). It says nothing about either premises, which may be purest crap even if the method is good. {racli} is about behavior in context and says nothing about the motivation of the behavior (an insane man may behave rationally by doing something crazy in the situation as he incorrectly perceives it). Sarek may be presumed to have an accurate view of the situation and to work from that view to an accurate assessment of alternatives, but the view is necessarily limited (Hell, human males haven't figured out women, what chance did an et have?), so "seemed to fit the situation by the standard of good logic applied to available information" where the standard might be assumed to be the usual -- at least for Vulcan diplomats. {prije} is about the agent and is subjective, which makes it appropriate here again, though that is already impicit in the "seemed." {drani} actually brings in many of the points again: situation and standard, but the property is less clear in this case. --part1_13e.6179717.2948ce94_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/2001 8:02:13 AM Central Standard Time, phma@oltronics.net writes:


After hearing the suggestions of others, I settled on {ca lenu co'e le se
zukte cu simlu le ka racli}. How does that sound?


Better, but I wonder about the se racli, the standard.  I don't like the lujvo that go into all of the details (which Cherlin has provided) but something more than "sane" or even "rational" seems called for to deal with choosing the highest scoring in a dispassionate evaluation of options in a situation.  I wonder if {prije} (well, {se prije}) might not be useful here for its inclusion of an evaluative component as well as a rational one.  Part of the trouble is that the notional area this deals with is not well explored -- certainly in Lojban but also in English. 
{logji} is strictly about the means by which a conclusion is reached (really strictly it does not even require that that method be a "good" one, only that it be a specifiable method).  It says nothing about either premises, which may be purest crap even if the method is good.
{racli} is about behavior in context and says nothing about the motivation of the behavior (an insane man may behave rationally by doing something crazy in the situation as he incorrectly perceives it).  Sarek may be presumed to have an accurate view of the situation and to work from that view to an accurate assessment of alternatives, but the view is necessarily limited (Hell, human males haven't figured out women, what chance did an et have?), so "seemed to fit the situation by the standard of good logic applied to available information" where the standard might be assumed to be the usual -- at least for Vulcan diplomats.
{prije} is about the agent and is subjective, which makes it appropriate here again, though that is already impicit in the "seemed."
{drani} actually brings in many of the points again: situation and standard, but the property is less clear in this case. --part1_13e.6179717.2948ce94_boundary--