From pycyn@aol.com Sat Mar 02 14:33:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 2 Mar 2002 22:33:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 14453 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2002 22:33:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2002 22:33:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2002 22:33:46 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.93.18fcf5e5 (3950) for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:33:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <93.18fcf5e5.29b2ad35@aol.com> Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:33:25 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [jboske] RE: Anything but tautologies To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_93.18fcf5e5.29b2ad35_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=2455001 X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 13484 --part1_93.18fcf5e5.29b2ad35_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/2/2002 10:19:14 AM Central Standard Time, cowan@ccil.org writes: > > And how do we tell which is which? If {vei ny le mlatu} means "n cats" > why > > doesn't {ny le mlatu} mean "n the cats" with "n" standing standing for > some > > number rather than Nelly? > > Because. > > It just doesn't, that's why. > Fank wu, mommy! Does too! Actually, it think it always refers to the letter "n," the one usage tht is clearly presented (I now think it is not clearly presented, but it is presented, at least). <> What you have > said is that the letter en is a value and so. According to *one* interpretation of quotation marks, which I hereby disclaim.> Exactly on a par with the the previous explanation (or maybe a little more childish). Either we play by the rules, or we announce clearly that we have changed the rules. No such announcement that I can find, several clear cases of playing by those rules and carefully explaining the difference. So those rules are in force and you can be justifably criticized for screwing up big time. There are actually only four accepted usages of quotes -- one labelled vulgar -- and none of them are for easier reading. You can't disclaim the quote convention without making the rest of the Refgramm even worse-- virtually all of it then becomes a vast error (a point of view that has its advocates, of course). <> BTW "Mind your 'p's and 'q's" > is exactly about letters: the two are easily confused in many people's > handwriting and when use to keep tally of one's drinking of a day, errors -- > mistaking quarts for pints -- can be of considerable consequence. That's one theory of the origin of the phrase. There are about a dozen others, all equally just-so stories with no evidence for them.> This one is more generally accepted then most (it has a long history of attribution back to Goss or so) and most of the others also focus on the confusion of "p" and "q" in handwriting -- the crucial point after all. --part1_93.18fcf5e5.29b2ad35_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/2/2002 10:19:14 AM Central Standard Time, cowan@ccil.org writes:


> And how do we tell which is which? If  {vei ny le mlatu} means "n cats" why
> doesn't  {ny le mlatu} mean "n the cats" with "n" standing standing for some
> number rather than Nelly?

Because.

It just doesn't, that's why.


Fank wu, mommy!  Does too!  Actually, it think it always refers to the letter "n," the one usage tht is clearly presented (I now think it is not clearly presented, but it is presented, at least).

<> What you have
> said is that the letter en is a value and so.

According to *one* interpretation of quotation marks, which I hereby
disclaim.>

Exactly on a par with the the previous explanation (or maybe a little more childish).  Either we play by the rules, or we announce clearly that we have changed the rules.  No such announcement that I can find, several clear cases of playing by those rules and carefully explaining the difference.  So those rules are in force and you can be justifably criticized for screwing up big time.  There are actually only four accepted usages of quotes -- one labelled vulgar -- and none of them are for easier reading. 
You can't disclaim the quote convention without making the rest of the Refgramm even worse-- virtually all of it then becomes a vast error (a point of view that has its advocates, of course).
<> BTW "Mind your 'p's and 'q's"
> is exactly about letters: the two are easily confused in many people's
> handwriting and when use to keep tally of one's drinking of a day, errors --
> mistaking quarts for pints -- can be of considerable consequence. 

That's one theory of the origin of the phrase.  There are about a
dozen others, all equally just-so stories with no evidence for them.>

This one is more generally accepted then most (it has a long history of attribution back to Goss or so) and most of the others also focus on the confusion of "p" and "q" in handwriting -- the crucial point after all.


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