From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Sun May 19 10:26:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 17:26:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 26254 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 17:26:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 17:26:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 17:26:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.147] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 17:26:18 -0000 Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 17:26:18 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Law, hir nin... Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <02051910523110.02013@neofelis> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2177 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "aolung" X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=37407270 X-Yahoo-Profile: aolung X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 14295 --- In lojban@y..., Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Sunday 19 May 2002 10:21, aolung wrote: > > What do you think of the Lojban translation below? > I know neither Sindarin nor Hungarian, so I'm trying to go by the German.= =3D=0D >=20 > {naku ca dunra} (btw, {do'u} is unnecessary) means "it is not now winter"= =3D=0D =20 > without indicating whether Arwen expects winter to be past or future. I'd= =3D=0D say=20 > {bajecanai dunra} if she knows that it's future. I like your {bajecanai} for giving "not yet" (although the "yet" is not ver= =3D=0D bally=20 expressed in Sindarin, just expressed by "haven't come", which would be unl= =3D=0D ojbanic with regard to winter). Apart from this, those people do not talk about *se= =3D=0D asons*=20 (gone by or in the future), so {dunra} is used as a synonym/metaphor for {m= =3D=0D robi'o} which anyway is problematic in Lojban: a certainty to be expected -> bajeca= =3D=0D nai! Also "gwannad" refers to {mrobi'o}, hence daring to give it literally by {c= =3D=0D liva}. =20 > {tertei} doesn't sound right - it's the endpoint of a time interval, and = =3D=0D the=20 > obvious time interval is winter - but it's the *beginning* of winter, if = =3D=0D I=20 > understand right, that would be the appropriate time. Maybe {citsi}. "nui l=FB"/before the time" also sounds pretty metaphorical for Lojbanic understanding: I still seem to like (pu'o le tertei) for "before the ending= =3D=0D point of this present time interval has been reached" (maybe {pu'o} is too close = =3D=0D to that point!). I.e., winter's beginning *beyond* that border. BTW, I've removed some typos (the Hungarian one being quite funny: "from up= =3D=0D on" (your people) ;-) ki'emi'e .aulun. _________ "Law, h=EEr n=EDn, =FA dollen i R=EEw. An=EDrach, nui l=FB, gwannad uin(g) = gwaith l=EDn?"=3D=0D (Arwen na Aragorn) "Nem, uram, m=E9g nem j=F6tt a t=E9l. Akar-e, az id=F5 el=F5tt, elmenni a n= =E9p=E9t=F5l?" "Nein, mein Gebieter, noch ist der Winter nicht gekommen. Wollt Ihr, vor der Zeit, Euer Volk verlassen?" "lu naku doi turni be mi bajecanai dunra .i .ue paunai pu'o le tertei ku do djica lenu cliva le do natmi li'u"