From lojbab@lojban.org Wed Jul 24 16:59:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 24 Jul 2002 23:59:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 33758 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 23:59:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Jul 2002 23:59:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao01.cox.net) (68.1.17.244) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 23:59:29 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020724235927.DFJN29627.lakemtao01.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:59:27 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724192056.032e66d0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: lojbab@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:55:52 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: New Members, Board of Directors, other LogFest results In-Reply-To: <013d01c2333b$2b1cf400$73a1ca3e@oemcomputer> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723025544.032cba90@pop.east.cox.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010730221611.00b10c00@pop.cais.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020723025544.032cba90@pop.east.cox.net> <20020723103956.E28971@miranda.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020723195058.030913c0@pop.east.cox.net> <20020723221537.B26815@miranda.org> <20020724051555.GC18580@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20020724105238.E9069@miranda.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Bob LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 14709 At 07:54 PM 7/24/02 +0200, you wrote: > > IMO, it ought to be of the utmost importance for the LLG to try and end > > this English-centrism, and at least get the word lists translated into the > > 5 other major world languages. (If not declare it a "priority" that the > > reference grammar and such be translated, as well.) > > >Although you probably all agree about this translation buisiness, I thought >I'd just mention the following, in case you didn't realise how important >this was (it's rather disorganised, as most my prose usually is, but the >idea is that the problems I mention may start disappearing when stuff gets >translated): > >For us to be able to actually do anything with Lojban as far as Sapir-whorf >is concerned (as a matter of curious interest at any rate), we need people >who are not *at all* anglophones to learn it. We also need people who are >not "SAE"-ophones. > >At the moment, Lojban is (essentially) American - at any rate, this is, more >importantly, the way it appears to be. Actually around 30-40% of LLG is non-American, and growing. It might even be higher, because several non-Anglophones have recruited people whose names we never hear. Colin Fine for example has sold around a dozen copies of CLL in the UK. There have been study groups in Sweden, Italy, and Israel where I only know one name. There is a Russian Lojban group on yahoogroups (lojban-rus), and discussions are entirely in Russian and Lojban - there may be a not-at-all-Anglophone among them, though I suspect that most non-Anglophones on the Net have at least some reading knowledge of English. There are several non-Anglo-primary-phones, and a couple non-SAE-primary-phones (indeed I just got a call today from a Tagalog native living in San Francisco who is interested). The largest numbers are from Finland, but only Veijo Vilva has written in the language at length and his English is flawless. >Many Amercains fail/don't believe/don't want to know about the intense >dislike of the US (for various political, social and economic reasons) and >of anglo-centrism (for social, scientific and linguistic reasons) which >occurs in the rest of the world - particularly in non-British Europe. Actually we do know. Many don't want to know, but there is a large isolationist segment of the population that simply doesn't CARE what others think of us. But I won't say more, lest this turn political. > The >type of person who goes into Lojban is also frequently the type who has >radical and outspoken views on things; and is likely to be put off by the >fact that Lojban has been about for (again,what appears to be) 50 years, and >nobody has made it available to people who have no wish to learn English. TLI Loglan was started around 50 years ago, but Lojban only 15 years. More importantly, we did not even have a book in English until 5 years ago. You have to walk before you can run, and until we had something to translate, it was hard to think about translating it. (JCB never discussed foreign translation of TLI materials, and I'm not sure he would have considered it worth contemplating without research funding to pay for it. but since TLI has a policy against freezing/baselining the language, any translation is of an ad hoc nature.) >As an example of this attitude, one of the first messages I got from Nicolas >Buisson, after I had explained that there was no Lojban material available >to people who spoke no English, explained his view that Lojbanists seemed to >be satisfied with the audience they had so far and that Lojban would >probably stay an American affair. Please tell him that we aren't satisfied. Unfortunately, few Americans are competent enough in a foreign language to be able to assist a translation. My best second language is Russian, and I've found myself unable to read the language well enough to comment effectively on the Russian translations that are ongoing. Those Russian efforts are the best evidence we have, BTW, that Lojban is no longer entirely American/Anglo. Furthermore, the most skilled speakers of Lojban are an Australian Greek (Nick), an Argentinian (Jorge), a Croatian (Goran Topic) and possibly xod (whose is American, but I'm not sure if he ranks himself at the level of the others yet). Our web site was originally developed/hosted in Finland >So anyways (sez I, in truly American declamatory style), translation of >stuff into other languages, paticularly na'e ropno) of Lojban material >should be made a priority. I've looked at the vocabulary, nearly all chinese >words contributed to the gismu, surely they should find Lojban reasonably >easy - or even familiar? We have had two Chinese as members of the list over time. Lin Zhe Min from Taiwan pops in and out (he has had flaky net access) and has translated the brochure into Chinese, but I don't know its status. Another Chinese person often trumpets the virtues of Lojban over Esperanto when the latter comes up on sci.lang, but he himself has never participated in the mailing list. 5-10 years from now I expect that there will be a lot of non-English Lojban activity, and that will be great. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org