Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.69]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17ZKCo-0003JI-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:45:38 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-14830-1027986273-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2002 23:44:33 -0000 X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 29 Jul 2002 23:44:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 44349 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 23:44:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Jul 2002 23:44:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 23:44:32 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id r.f3.1eb5fa54 (4230) for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10509 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:44:27 EDT Subject: [lojban] RE: Dictionary -- Unicode Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_f3.1eb5fa54.2a772d5b_boundary" X-archive-position: 360 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pycyn@aol.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Content-Length: 5155 Lines: 117 --part1_f3.1eb5fa54.2a772d5b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tsali: << I pronounce the n the same way in "UAcintyn.", "cinta" and "sanga". Am I normal? >> Depends on what you mean: I (and Lojban) would expect the n to be more dental in the first two, more velar in the last. But these shifts are thoroughly predictable in Lojban and so count as being the same. Greg: << once I realise what UAcinton is, I pronounce 'n' as a ?velar nasal, "sanga" > I pronounce with velar nasal while "cinta" I pronounce as a dental nasal. > > both are realisations of the same Lojbanic phoneme, they should therefore > not appear in a dictionary. Just the same as the /k/ in cost is *apparently* > the same as the one in kit. >> But it is crucial to the two pronunciations being in the same phoneme that they are predictable from context. If you use a velar nasal in {Uacintyn} it can no longer be in the /n/ phoneme, since its particular realization in this context is not predictable from the cointext and the fact it is an /n/. In fact, the phoneme has to be realized as dental (whatever that means in this case) in that context, so the velar must -- there at least -- belong to a different phoneme. In short, the eng pronunciation is bad Lojban, though natural for English speakers who know the word. pier: << For names it may be necessary; e.g. the first 'n' in "UAcintyn" should be pronounced as in "sanga", which is not normal for 'n' before 't'. Then there's 'r', which has several allophones, of which one or the other may be appropriate depending on what language the name comes from. Not that it's wrong to pronounce "UAcintyn" as "Washinton"; it just sounds funny.>> No it shouldn't (see above). As for /r/ and sounding funny, I should note that hereabouts (e.g., at my wife's family reunions) the normal pronunciation is Warshinton. --part1_f3.1eb5fa54.2a772d5b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tsali:
<<
I pronounce the n the same way in "UAcintyn.", "cinta" and "sanga". Am I
normal?
>>
Depends on what you mean: I (and Lojban) would expect the n to be more dental in the first two, more velar in the last.  But these shifts are thoroughly predictable in Lojban and so count as being the same.

Greg:
<<
once I realise what UAcinton is, I pronounce 'n' as a ?velar nasal,
"sanga"
> I pronounce with velar nasal while "cinta" I pronounce as a dental nasal.
>
> both are realisations of the same Lojbanic phoneme, they should therefore
> not appear in a dictionary. Just the same as the /k/ in cost is
*apparently*
> the same as the one in kit.
>>

But it is crucial to the two pronunciations being in the same phoneme that they are predictable from context.  If you use a velar nasal in {Uacintyn} it can no longer be in the /n/ phoneme, since its particular realization in this context is not predictable from the cointext and the fact it is an /n/.  In fact, the phoneme has to be realized as dental (whatever that means in this case) in that context, so the velar must -- there at least -- belong to a different phoneme.  In short, the eng pronunciation is bad Lojban, though natural for English speakers who know the word.

pier:
<<
For names it may be necessary; e.g. the first 'n' in "UAcintyn" should be
pronounced as in "sanga", which is not normal for 'n' before 't'. Then
there's 'r', which has several allophones, of which one or the other may be
appropriate depending on what language the name comes from. Not that it's
wrong to pronounce "UAcintyn" as "Washinton"; it just sounds funny.>>

No it shouldn't (see above).  As for /r/ and sounding funny, I should note that hereabouts (e.g., at my wife's family reunions) the normal pronunciation is Warshinton.
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