From sentto-44114-15029-1029139421-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Aug 12 01:04:15 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 01:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.72]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17eABQ-0006bJ-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 01:04:12 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15029-1029139421-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2002 08:03:41 -0000 X-Sender: Philip.Newton@datenrevision.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 08:03:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 20395 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 08:03:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 08:03:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spree.gedas.de) (139.1.44.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 08:03:40 -0000 Received: from spree.gedas.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spree.gedas.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18903 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:03:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from blnsem05.de.gedas.vwg (blnsem05.gedas.de [139.1.84.49]) by spree.gedas.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18899 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:03:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by blnsem05.de.gedas.vwg with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3W819WSC>; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:03:39 +0200 Message-ID: To: "'lojban@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) From: "Newton, Philip" X-Yahoo-Profile: elder_newton MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:03:37 +0200 Subject: [lojban] nolraitru Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 559 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: Philip.Newton@datenrevision.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list How would you expand "nolraitru" (meaning "king") into a tanru? The obvious "nobli traji turni" doesn't make sense to me, since that is "(nobli traji) turni", i.e. "(noble type-of superlative) type-of governor". I would have expected either "nobli ke traji turni" = "nobli (traji turni)" = "noble type-of (superlative type-of governor)" or "traji nobli turni" = "(traji nobli) turni" = "(superlative type-of noble) type-of governor". (Incidentally, is it possible to express "traji nobli turni" with the word order "nobli traji turni" by using cmavo? I tried "nobli co traji turni", intending "(nobli co traji) turni" but the co attached not the "traji" but the whole "traji turni" to the "nobli". And "ke nobli co traji ke'e turni" was rejected by jbofi'e as ungrammatical.) Two plausible explanations come to my mind: (1) The Lojban idiom for "most broda" may not be "traji broda" as English, but "broda traji". "Most interesting" seems to be to be "superlatively interesting", but Lojban might well have it as "interestingly superlative", emphasising the fact that it is superlative and using the modifier to indicate in what the superlativity(?) lies, rather than indicating that something is interesting and using the modifier to indicate the superlative degree. In this case, "nobli traji turni" would parse idiomatically as "superlatively-noble governor", which makes sense to me. (2) lujvo need not expand to the most obvious tanru, so that "nolraitru" means not necessarily "nobli traji turni" but "something to do with nobli, and traji, and turni (unordered(?))". Is that so? I seem to recall reading somewhere that lujvo were a bit free as to how things were expressed -- for example, that one could leave out things such as "ke", "ke'e", "nu", ... if the result is "logical" as a lujvo. Is either of those explanations correct? If not, how is "nolraitru" to be parsed? mu'omi'e filip. [email copies appreciated, since I read the digest] {ko fukpi mrilu .i'o fi mi ki'u le du'u mi te mrilu loi notseljmaji} -- Philip Newton All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/RN.GAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/