From sentto-44114-15220-1030018002-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Aug 22 05:07:16 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.79]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17hqk6-0000L5-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:07:14 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-15220-1030018002-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Aug 2002 12:06:42 -0000 X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 22 Aug 2002 12:06:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 9374 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2002 12:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Aug 2002 12:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Aug 2002 12:06:42 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.9.) id r.7e.2c7f2c56 (3924) for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7e.2c7f2c56.2a962dd0@aol.com> To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10509 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:06:40 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I like chocolate Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7e.2c7f2c56.2a962dd0_boundary" X-archive-position: 750 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pycyn@aol.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --part1_7e.2c7f2c56.2a962dd0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/21/2002 11:07:49 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: << > >< > > > la djak naku djuno ro du'u la djil sipna > > Jack doesn't know (every) that Jill is asleep. > > > >Even though he does know that Jill is asleep. Odd at least. > > >> > > > >Why so? > > Because it doesn't correspond to anything in natlangs as far > as I can tell. > >> The easiest similarity I can think of is indirect discourse: Jack says "I know the bitch is asleep" and you, being nice, report to others "Jack knows that Jill is asleep." Different events but out of the same class and (in this case as we are constructing it) ones both of which Jack knows. << ><< >{tu'o} suggests itself to me: the non-quantifier quantifier. >I suppose I have been using {lo'e} as {tu'o lo}. > >> >And this differs from {su'o lo} exactly how? In that tu'o does not quantify over the members of lo'i. It only extracts the intension. >> I'm not at all sure what "extracts the intension" means and, insofar as I do understand it, I don't see how it applies. Extracting intensions is not a quantifier's job, it is, if anything like that, to extract the extensions -- which is what is wanted here. Nor do I see any need to further extract intensions from what is already a set of intensions. Double abstractions have their place, I know from Nyaya, but this does not seem to be one (and you rejected the suggestion that that was what you were after in just your last message). << ><>Why do {le} and {lo} bring in manifestations. They refer to members of the >set lo'i nu mi citka lo cakla, and every member of that set is an event, >abstract, not an occasion, manifestation. What would {re nu mi citka lo cakla} be, other than two occasions real or imaginary, but occasions? >> Two events that fall into the class lo'i nu mi citka lo cakla -- and thus abstract -- under which various real or imaginary occasions may fall (or not, as the case may be). << If they are not occasions, is there any way to refer to occasions in Lojban? >> The way we always do: pin them down with an explicit or implicit hook to the real world, {ca} or {vi} or... or by the nature of the selbri to which they attach. --part1_7e.2c7f2c56.2a962dd0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/21/2002 11:07:49 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:

<<
><<In that case, you would claim:
>
>      la djak naku djuno ro du'u la djil sipna
>      Jack doesn't know (every) that Jill is asleep.
>
>Even though he does know that Jill is asleep. Odd at least.
> >>
>
>Why so?

Because it doesn't correspond to anything in natlangs as far
as I can tell.
>
>

The easiest similarity I can think of is indirect discourse: Jack says "I know the bitch is asleep" and you, being nice, report to others "Jack knows that Jill is asleep."  Different events but out of the same class and (in this case as we are constructing it) ones both of which Jack knows.

<<
><<
>{tu'o} suggests itself to me: the non-quantifier quantifier.
>I suppose I have been using {lo'e} as {tu'o lo}.
> >>
>And this differs from {su'o lo} exactly how?

In that tu'o does not quantify over the members of lo'i.
It only extracts the intension.
>>
I'm not at all sure what "extracts the intension" means and, insofar as I do understand it, I don't see how it applies.  Extracting intensions is not a quantifier's job, it is, if anything like that, to extract the extensions -- which is what is wanted here.  Nor do I see any need to further extract intensions from what is already a set of intensions.  Double abstractions have their place, I know from Nyaya, but this does not seem to be one (and you rejected the suggestion that that was what you were after in just your last message).

<<
><>Why do {le} and {lo} bring in manifestations.  They refer to members of the
>set lo'i nu mi citka lo cakla, and every member of that set is an event,
>abstract, not an occasion, manifestation.

What would {re nu mi citka lo cakla} be, other than two occasions
real or imaginary, but occasions?
>>
Two events that fall into the class lo'i nu mi citka lo cakla -- and thus abstract -- under which various real or imaginary occasions may fall (or not, as the case may be).

<<
If they are not occasions, is there any way to refer to occasions
in Lojban?
>>

The way we always do: pin them down with an explicit or implicit hook to the real world, {ca} or {vi} or... or by the nature of the selbri to which they attach.
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