Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.87]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17cynJ-0003tp-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:42:25 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-14970-1028857314-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Aug 2002 01:41:54 -0000 X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 9 Aug 2002 01:41:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 54417 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 01:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2002 01:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r05.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.101) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 01:41:52 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.ff.1bed8dd7 (26118) for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10509 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:41:46 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] x3 of dasni Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ff.1bed8dd7.2a8477da_boundary" X-archive-position: 500 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pycyn@aol.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Content-Length: 6366 Lines: 133 --part1_ff.1bed8dd7.2a8477da_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/2002 4:39:55 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: > > > I would use {lo'e} there: {ko'a dasni le boxfo lo'e kosta}. > > > >Or, in the less xorxean way, just {lo}. ;-) > > But {lo} doesn't work either! {ko'a dasni le boxfo lo kosta} > means that there is _some coat_ such that ko'a wears the blanket > as _that coat_. But that's not what wearing a blanket as a coat > means Maybe not what it "means" (whatever that means in this context), but it is a certainly true description. It only sounds weird if you get the idea that you -- or ko'a -- can identify *which* coat it is or if you think it makes a difference which coat it is. But ignoring those questions is just what particular quantifiers are for. On the other hand, he can't wear it for lo'e ki\osta, because neither a typical nor an arechetypal coat is something that he could wear, being abstract or supernatural (assuming you don't just mean {lo} by {lo'e}). << > > And how would be "He wears a blanket on his shoulders" then? > >Good question! {ko'a dasni le boxfo vi/gu'a le birka janco} do not feel >right. That's because it would have the sense of "He wears a blanket on the mountain". Spatial tenses give the location of the event, in this case the event of wearing. >> Well, where else does the event of wearing something on one's shoulders take place other than on one's shoulders. It may take place some wider places in addition, which are of interest, but they don't negate the first and primal place. However, we might try another fix -- which is less accurate, but somehow less offensive: {ko'a dansi le boxfo be/pe vi le birka janco} (I'm not sure just what the difference is between the two alternatives -- {ne}, which is also grammatical, seems to be too casual a connection). << > ko'a dasni le boxfo le janco taxfu >or > ko'a dasni le boxfo le janco gacri I think those work, but using {lo'e} instead of {le} in x3. Even {lo'e janco cpana}. >> But 1) it ain't wearable and 2) there ain't one anyhow. There is neither archeteype nor typical thing to be on a shoulder. We can pretend there is one as an idiom, but I wonder if we are really ready for idioms here yet, since we often screw up the literals (and idioms seem at this point a copout). --part1_ff.1bed8dd7.2a8477da_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/2002 4:39:55 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


> > I would use {lo'e} there: {ko'a dasni le boxfo lo'e kosta}.
>
>Or, in the less xorxean way, just {lo}. ;-)

But {lo} doesn't work either! {ko'a dasni le boxfo lo kosta}
means that there is _some coat_ such that ko'a wears the blanket
as _that coat_. But that's not what wearing a blanket as a coat
means


Maybe not what it "means" (whatever that means in this context), but it is a certainly true description.  It only sounds weird if you get the idea that you -- or ko'a -- can identify *which* coat it is or if you think it makes a difference which coat it is.  But ignoring those questions is just what particular quantifiers are for.  On the other hand, he can't wear it for lo'e ki\osta, because neither a typical nor an arechetypal coat is something that he could wear, being abstract or supernatural (assuming you don't just mean {lo} by {lo'e}).

<<
> > And how would be "He wears a blanket on his shoulders" then?
>
>Good question!  {ko'a dasni le boxfo vi/gu'a le birka janco}  do not feel
>right.

That's because it would have the sense of "He wears a blanket
on the mountain". Spatial tenses give the location of the event,
in this case the event of wearing.
>>

Well, where else does the event of wearing something on one's shoulders take place other than on one's shoulders.  It may take place some wider places in addition, which are of interest, but they don't negate the first and primal place.  However, we might try another fix -- which is less accurate, but somehow less offensive:
{ko'a dansi le boxfo be/pe vi le birka janco} (I'm not sure just what the difference is between the two alternatives -- {ne}, which is also grammatical, seems to be too casual a connection).

<<
>     ko'a dasni le boxfo le janco taxfu
>or
>     ko'a dasni le boxfo le janco gacri

I think those work, but using {lo'e} instead of {le} in x3.
Even {lo'e janco cpana}.
>>
But 1) it ain't wearable and 2) there ain't one anyhow.  There is neither archeteype nor typical thing to be on a shoulder.  We can pretend there is one as an idiom, but I wonder if we are really ready for idioms here yet, since we often screw up the literals (and idioms seem at this point a copout).
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