From jjllambias@hotmail.com Tue Aug 13 05:50:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 12:50:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 57572 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 12:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 12:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 12:50:53 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:42:21 -0700 Received: from 200.49.74.2 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:42:20 GMT To: Philip.Newton@datenrevision.de, lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: fu'ivla with lujvo as rafsi? Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:42:20 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2002 12:42:21.0035 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDB48BB0:01C242C6] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.49.74.2] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=6071566 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 15031 la filip cusku di'e > > >Is it possible to make type III fu'ivla using lujvo stems as > > >pseudo-rafsi? > > > > The stem has to be a consonant ending rafsi. Anything else > > can cause trouble. > >Can you explain to me why this is? A consonant-ending-rafsi + r(/n/l) + consonant-starting-borrowing cannot break. This is because r/n/l cannot start an initial cluster, so the first syllable of the rafsi will never fall off, and also a three consonant combination with a non initial cluster cannot be part of a lujvo. On the other hand, the sometimes mentioned form {djarspageti} {dja-r-spageti} for example, cannot be generalized. Consider {dja-r-pitsa}. It fails the slinku'i test: {ci djarpitsa} can be understood as the lujvo form {cid-jar-pitsa}. > > In any case, the stem has to end in a consonant and the > > lojbanized borrowing has to start with a consonant > >Why is this? (Because the rules for making fu'ivla say so? Or because >otherwise words break up?) The rules say so because otherwise words break up for some forms of the borrowing. There are some borrowings that will work with other stems, but these rules guarantee that any borrowing will give a valid fu'ivla. >In particular, ISTR having read that in some circumstances, it's OK if the >borrowed bit starts with a vowel, though I don't recall the details >(perhaps >when the rafsi ending + glue is already crunchy enough?). Three consonants the last of which is 'r' are very rarely crunchy enough, as most Cr are valid initials. The only exceptions I think are jr, zr, nr and lr. So I guess you could say that rafsi of the form CVCj, CVCz, CVCn or CVCl can take borrowings that start with a vowel, also rafsi of the form CVCr or CVCm by adding n, and maybe some others, but it seems to me that it is not worth complicating the rules that much. On the other hand, the rules are such a piece of arcana already that an additional complication can't be all that harmful. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com