From sentto-44114-16030-1032795022-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Sep 23 08:33:11 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.82]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17tVCr-0006TT-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:33:06 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16030-1032795022-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2002 15:30:22 -0000 X-Sender: nessus@free.fr X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 23 Sep 2002 15:30:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 57714 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2002 15:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2002 15:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mel-rto3.wanadoo.fr) (193.252.19.233) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2002 15:30:21 -0000 Received: from mel-rta7.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.61) by mel-rto3.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D760D7C00AE1A34 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:30:20 +0200 Received: from ftiq2awxk6 (80.9.201.133) by mel-rta7.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D8011E600672693 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:30:20 +0200 Message-ID: <005201c26317$dd330060$dc9bf8c1@ftiq2awxk6> To: "lojban" References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Lionel Vidal" X-Yahoo-Profile: cmacinf MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:41:56 +0200 Subject: [lojban] Re: notes on conventional implicature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1518 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nessus@free.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list and: > Lojban definitely has conventional implicature: > * some UI > * "le broda" is equivalent to > "[unasserted:] da poi ro lu'a ke'a broda .... [asserted:] ro lu'a da" > However, these are special cases. Other debated cases have been > resolved against conv-implic. I agree, but I would have found more 'natural' for a logical language to avoid these special cases by having no conv-implic and maybe some explicit mechanism (special cmavos maybe) to allow it on demand. Truth value affectations would have been much cleaner. pc: >So the point here is that uttering a sentence with {lo INNER broda} in it -- >even if INNER is implicit -- commits you to there being INNER broda. >If there are not, then the whole is meaningless, {na'i}-false -- and so is its denial. > Negations and negation boundaries do not affect this inner value. We do not >say that the negation of {lo broda cu brode}, {lo brode na brode} is going > to result in {ro lo me'iro brode naku brode} when we move the negation through, > but just {ro lo broda naku brode} where {lo broda} is still implictly {lo ro broda} But to be consistent, this should also be true in when INNER actually set the cardinality of the underlying subset of broda, as in{lo ci broda cu brode}, which I would read as {ge lo'i broda cu ci mei gi lo broda cu brode}, and has such is indeed affected by negation boundaries. Or do you consider than this cardinality is never really asserted, but belongs to {na'i} domain, i.e. be the same kind of presupposed implications, despite being explicitly stated? mu'omi'e lioNEL ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/ySSFAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/