From sentto-44114-16139-1033147724-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 10:35:53 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.72]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17uz1q-0003ED-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:35:50 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16139-1033147724-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Sep 2002 17:28:45 -0000 X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 27 Sep 2002 17:28:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 27910 invoked from network); 27 Sep 2002 17:28:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Sep 2002 17:28:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Sep 2002 17:28:44 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.1a8.93d78ba (4529) for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1a8.93d78ba.2ac5ef47@aol.com> To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10509 From: pycyn@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: kaliputra MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:28:39 EDT Subject: [lojban] Context Leapers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1a8.93d78ba.2ac5ef47_boundary" X-archive-position: 1627 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pycyn@aol.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --part1_1a8.93d78ba.2ac5ef47_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since a use for them has come up again, perhaps it is time to mention them again and set people to checking -- again- whether is not already a device of a place for a device to carry out their function, which is getting quantifiers (and connectives, too -- but this is generally easier) in the right order, with the right scope, regardless of where they turn up in the stream of utterance. The usual example in English is "any," which, when it occurs in the antecedent of a conditional of the scope of a negation (which, come to that, the antecedent is) leaps out to take long scope (the whole conditional, the negation) as a universal. The problem with this is that "any" can also mean "some" and "some" and "a" behave in much the same way (indeed, in Pierce's existential graphs, a universal conditional is regular drawn with a particular in the antecedent): "I any boy comes to the dance, all the girls will dance with him" = "... some boy ...." = "... a boy..." (the fact that the quantified expression is picked up in the consequent is not significant, since the move works when this is not so). A better case would be "a certain" which comes out of negative contexts as a particular: "If a certain boy comes, all the girls will dance with him" or "all the girls will be happy." And this move clearly does not depend upon some interplay of particulars and universals, since "a certain" is particular throughout. [& would probably have this as {le} so presuppositional and so a quantifier alrady in front even before the speech act was defined. At least that the quantifier is before the basics of the sentence, e.g., the negation, if any, is certainly right.] What would be wanted in Lojban is a widget to attach to a quantifier that places it at the front of its context with maximum scope or can insert it into a string of quantifiers at some place other than where it physically lies. It may already be around, hidden away where the index to CLL does not go (While looking for this, I found examples I have long been looking for of {ka} used not as {du'u ce'u} but as the parallel to {ni} in 14.19.1&2 (365), a section on connectives! Not mentioned in the index.) Otherwise, maybe something in subscripts, which don't now work? --part1_1a8.93d78ba.2ac5ef47_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since a use for them has come up again, perhaps it is time to mention them again and set people to checking -- again- whether is not already a device of a place for a device to carry out their function, which is getting quantifiers (and connectives, too -- but this is generally easier) in the right order, with the right scope, regardless of where they turn up in the stream of utterance.
The usual example in English is "any," which, when it occurs in the antecedent of a conditional of the scope of a negation (which, come to that, the antecedent is) leaps out to take long scope (the whole conditional, the negation) as a universal.   The problem with this is that "any" can also mean "some" and "some" and "a" behave in much the same way  (indeed, in Pierce's existential graphs, a universal conditional is regular drawn with a particular in the antecedent): "I any boy comes to the dance, all the girls will dance with him" = "... some boy ...." = "... a boy..." (the fact that the quantified expression is picked up in the consequent is not significant, since the move works when this is not so).  A better case would be "a certain" which comes out of negative contexts as a particular: "If a certain boy comes, all the girls will dance with him"  or "all the girls will be happy."   And this move clearly does not depend upon some interplay of particulars and universals, since "a certain" is particular throughout. [& would probably have this as {le} so presuppositional and so a quantifier alrady in front even before the speech act was defined. At least that the quantifier is before the basics of the sentence, e.g., the negation, if any, is certainly right.]
What would be wanted in Lojban is a widget to attach to a quantifier that places it at the front of its context with maximum scope or can insert it into a string of quantifiers at some place other than where it physically lies.  It may already be around, hidden away where the index to CLL does not go (While looking for this, I found examples I have long been  looking for of {ka} used not as {du'u ce'u} but as the parallel to {ni} in 14.19.1&2 (365), a section on connectives! Not mentioned in the index.)
Otherwise, maybe something in subscripts, which don't now work?
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