From sentto-44114-16158-1033169541-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Sep 27 16:35:46 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.83]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17v4e4-0004nU-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:35:40 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16158-1033169541-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Sep 2002 23:32:22 -0000 X-Sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 27 Sep 2002 23:32:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 57815 invoked from network); 27 Sep 2002 23:32:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Sep 2002 23:32:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailbox-6.st1.spray.net) (212.78.202.106) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Sep 2002 23:32:19 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-67-49.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.67.49]) by mailbox-6.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F3F9292A9 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:32:17 +0200 (DST) To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:33:54 +0100 Subject: [lojban] Re: interactions between tenses, other tenses, and NA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1648 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list jimc: > On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, jjllambias2000 wrote: > > la djorden cusku di'e > > > It's actually pretty simple: there's no need to do real thinking > > > about the sentence: > > > - if you can rephrase it as "It is false that: foo", the na is > > fine. > > > > I call that real thinking, and that't exactly what I do to > > analyze it. But I don't want to have to rephrase a sentence > > in order to understand it. I don't want to have to translate > > it in the first place. > > Perhaps the real issue is that you have to reprogram your semantic analyser > for real logic. Mapping Lojban 1-1 into an illogical natlang is going to > mangle the result, particularly where "carbon units" are most sloppy in > their logic. I've actually gotten into the habit of using Lojban-style > predicate logic and quantifier scope (and negation) internally, Right, but the whole problem here is that the iinear/one-dimensionsal hierarchy of scope relations is, in a highly intuitive way, reflected in Lojban by linear order *except* for bare {na}. So when processing Lojban logically you have to remember two facts: Fact A. Scope goes left to right, as you would expect. Fact B. {na} is an exception. Fact B is counterintuitive, and it is an effort to remember to remember it. --And. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/