From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Mon Sep 23 10:02:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 23 Sep 2002 17:02:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 48268 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2002 17:02:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2002 17:02:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2002 17:02:11 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17tWdD-0000dk-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:04:23 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17tWcX-0000XL-00; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:03:41 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from com1.uclan.ac.uk ([193.61.255.3]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17tWcR-0000VL-00; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:03:35 -0700 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:28:42 +0100 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:01:16 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:01:01 +0100 To: lojban-list , lojban-out , jkominek Subject: [lojban] Re: cmavo for emphasis? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline X-archive-position: 1535 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: And Rosta Reply-To: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=810630 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 16025 Jay: #On Mon, Sep 23, 2002 at 05:35:35PM +0100, And Rosta wrote: #> Yes about {ba'e} as the emphasis marker. But what I said wasn;t #> irrelevant. Viktor asked "how do we express this", I said how, and #> Jay answered that users of the language wouldn't understand the #> usage. In a sense I was arguing that Jay's point was irrelevant, #> that what users will or won't understand doesn't tell us much about #> Lojban. # #Users won't understand it because it is bloody well wrong, as you've #now noticed. Do people say "bloody well wrong" in Colorado? It sounds very British to my ears. Anyway, did you not read what I wrote? Viktor's examples suggested he was asking about focus, and what I originally said was wrong in applying to emphasis, but relatively right in applying to focus. But that still doesn't mean that users will understand it, because the users are not very competent in Lojban. (I'm not saying that there is an established convention of using the cleft-like 'contortions' for focus; I'm saying that linguistics tells us that it is in the nature of language for cleft-like constructions and focus-marking function to be attracted to each other -- the very fact of using the more contorted syntax serves to mirror what's going on in the meaning.) --And.