From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sat Sep 28 15:28:34 2002
Return-Path: <jjllambias@hotmail.com>
X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com
X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 28 Sep 2002 22:28:33 -0000
Received: (qmail 23953 invoked from network); 28 Sep 2002 22:28:33 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218)
  by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Sep 2002 22:28:33 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.64)
  by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Sep 2002 22:28:33 -0000
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC;
	 Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:28:33 -0700
Received: from 200.69.6.55 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;
	Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:28:33 GMT
To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Bcc: 
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: paroi ro mentu
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:28:33 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F64NSLONsGRBwyA1Xn8000094d9@hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2002 22:28:33.0561 (UTC) FILETIME=[612A9890:01C2673E]
From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@hotmail.com>
X-Originating-IP: [200.69.6.55]
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=6071566
X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000
X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 16174


la djorden cusku di'e

> > baku zo'u ge mi klama la paris gi mi klama la romas
>
>This works in this case, but as we discussed it's not something you
>can generally do unless you move every other tense (and in the paroi
>case, move everything with a quantifier) into the prenex also to
>preserve order.

Of course, but exactly the same happens with {pa prenu}. You
can't treat it separately from all other things that have
relevant scope.

> >       ta'eku mi klama la paris e la romas
> >
> > This is:
> >
> >       ta'eku zo'u ge mi klama la paris gi mi klama la romas
> >       Typically, I go both to Paris and to Rome.
>
>I agree with the first line (though, as I said above it doesn't work
>in the general case without moving other shit into the prenex also)

Of course, everything with scope that comes before it must move
to the prenex before it.

>but I think your translation to english is bad.  I think the sentence
>means the translation you give for the next sentence.  To get the
>sentence you said, I think you would need either
>         ta'eku mi klama la paris. jo'u la romas.
>or
>         ta'eku mi klama la paris. joi la romas.

Ok. That's a possibility. You're saying that tags never
have scope over other sumti. Then when we apply this to
{paroiku}:

(1a)      paroiku mi klama la paris e la romas

expands to:

(1b)      paroiku mi klama la paris ije paroiku mi klama la romas

And:

(2a)      paroiku mi klama ro le re tcadu

expands to:

(2b)      roda voi tcadu zo'u paroiku mi klama da
          For each of the (two) cities, I once went to it.

Also:

(3)       paroi le pavdei e le reldei mi klama la paris

will expand to:

(3a)      paroi le pavdei mi klama la paris
          ije paroi le reldei mi klama la paris

And similarly:

(4)        paroi ro le re djedi mi klama la paris

will expand as:

(4a)       roda voi djedi zo'u paroi da mi klama la paris

Q.E.D.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com