From sentto-44114-16370-1033648752-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 03 05:43:53 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 03 Oct 2002 05:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.78]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17x5KX-0001nw-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Thu, 03 Oct 2002 05:43:49 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16370-1033648752-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2002 12:39:12 -0000 X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 12:39:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 31884 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 12:39:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 12:39:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao03.cox.net) (68.1.17.242) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 12:39:11 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20021003123910.JQAW16428.lakemtao03.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:39:10 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003071349.032088c0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <2C28C415-D6B7-11D6-BC3D-003065D4EC72@optushome.com.au> From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 08:17:05 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: Lojban in 12 weeks? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1859 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list At 08:02 PM 10/3/02 +1000, Nick Nicholas wrote: >The Lojban brochure includes the claim: "A working vocabulary including >the complete set of 1350 root words takes about 8.12 weeks of study at >1 hour per day." > >Robin.CA's apophthegmatic response on the Wiki errata page: "Bullshit". I have only gotten a couple of logs from Lojbanists. I don't have Robin's so far as I can tell. One person sent a log spread out over 9 1/2 months. There were 32 sessions with lots of gaps of weeks or more, and then the person started over. He then finished the new words in 62 sessions after 2 months, and then continued to record data until he reached 142 sessions after 4 months, when it looked like he was averaging around 85% on his Under control words. His lessons appeared to take a little more than an hour while he had new words, and then dropped to around 45 minutes. Probably 120 hours after he restarted. Another person did 75 sessions of around 20 minutes over 9 weeks to get through the new words, but that was in the beginner mode with no recall lessons. He never sent a log of Gaining control mode. A well-known non-English-native Lojbanist who had been involved in the language for a couple of years before starting Logflash took 73 sessions of a half hour to get through the new words, and was near 100% by session 90. He quit recording after 120 sessions, a total of 8 days (that is called a Lojban intensive course %^). Probably 45-60 hours total. Another non-English native Lojbanist had around 11 sessions intermittently over several months, then got really serious (but didn't reset the words) doing some 50 sessions each 15 minutes long or so over a Christmas break. He then slowed down, doing 80 more sessions (still 10-15 minutes long) over the next 6 months before he finished the New words. He was at near 100% level at that point, though he continued another month before going into Maintenance mode. In intermittent lessons over the next year and a half, he typically had 80-90% correct. Probably around 45 hours total before he went into maintenance mode. I would say that 8 weeks (60 hours) is certainly achievable for those who use the program rigorously, and who start in "Gaining Control" mode which unfortunately has not been the default for a while (the recognition-only beginners lessons appeared to add 2 months to the total time, albeit with less than a half hour per day - this spreads out the effort, but probably makes it more possible to get through the words more intensively when Gaining Control is used. But we have no data to support this. However, it appears that relatively few people use the program rigorously as it was designed, and rather than an hour a day for 8-12 weeks, either do it intensively in which case it may take fewer hours but a lot more than an hour a day, or intermittently. I suspect the 120 hour figure for the first person would reflect the most typical result, which would suggest that we should say "8-16 weeks" to cover the range of reported experience (it has been far too long for us but I think Nora and I took around 90-100 sessions in 1987-8 - hers a little less than an hour, mine an hour and a half until I got through the new words and then a half hour for an overall average of an hour. Tommy Whitlock was averaging closer to 2 hours per session, suffering particularly badly because he occasionally skipped 2-3 days, which seriously raises the error rate the first time through. None of us was actually doing anything with the language then because we didn't have much of a grammar developed, so this was pure rote drill). If anyone else has used LogFlash extensively (ideally having gone through all the new words and preferably up to maintenance mode) and has not sent me logs, the files are need are the two files labelled ".fl1" with your name in the filename. Thorough analysis of the logs takes a while including a software program that I don't remember how to use right now, but the above numbers came from a quick scan (since I have a pretty good idea what to look for). lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! 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