From sentto-44114-16657-1034308002-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 20:51:26 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.83]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17zqpf-0004bJ-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:51:23 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-16657-1034308002-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2002 03:46:43 -0000 X-Sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 11 Oct 2002 03:46:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 81200 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2002 03:46:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Oct 2002 03:46:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.reutershealth.com) (65.246.141.151) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Oct 2002 03:46:41 -0000 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (IDENT:cowan@[10.65.117.21]) by mail2.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA11488 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200210110358.XAA11488@mail2.reutershealth.com> Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:45:49 +4400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: from "cowan" at Oct 10, 2002 11:35:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] From: John Cowan X-Yahoo-Profile: john_w_cowan MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [lojban] Re: ka'enai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 2151 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Nick Nicholas scripsit: > (1) Humans impose patterns on grammars. If you've been told that CAhA > is a tense as much as pu and fa'a; if you've seen that every single > other tense has NAI; if you see no logical reason why you wouldn't > say CAhA NAI, then of course you'll say CAhA NAI. (Apologies for the botched reply earlier.) You are way overgeneralizing. Here are the current rules: PU NAI and FAhA NAI are contradictory negations. PU NAI goes back to Loglan days: "pujecanai" is the same as, and has no advantages over, "pujenaica", but it has always been allowed. Someone, probably me, made FAhA parallel to PU. TAhE NAI is polar negation, and ROI NAI is scalar negation. ZAhO NAI is allowed by the grammar but not (AFAICT) documented in CLL anywhere. I have no intuition about what it was supposed to be: like TAhE and ROI, or like PU, or what. All the other tense cmavo (CAhA, KI, CUhE, ZI, ZEhA, VA, MOhI, VIhA, VEhA, FEhE) don't allow NAI at all. My view: "No NAI in tenses". Contradictory negations can be done better with NA, and scalar/polar negations more cleanly and flexibly with prefixed NAhE (which is always allowed). > Furthermore, if fixes are proposed as techfixes to the grammar (which > we haven't talked about, but seems unlikely), things would have to be > really broken; as in, ambiguous. I don't think {ka'enai} passes that > bar, since NAhE CAhA is, after all, possible. Given the above pile of crap, I would consider a simple removal techfix. You may all shiver in your shoes now. -- One art / There is John Cowan No less / No more http://www.reutershealth.com All things / To do http://www.ccil.org/~cowan With sparks / Galore -- Douglas Hofstadter -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan Assent may be registered by a signature, a handshake, or a click of a computer mouse transmitted across the invisible ether of the Internet. Formality is not a requisite; any sign, symbol or action, or even willful inaction, as long as it is unequivocally referable to the promise, may create a contract. --_Specht v. Netscape_ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/