From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Oct 14 17:53:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 00:53:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 32863 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 00:53:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 00:53:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 00:53:20 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 181G1y-0002Dg-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:57:54 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 181G1P-0002DP-00; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:57:19 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 181G1L-0002DG-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:57:15 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g9F114GZ011842 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:01:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g9F114Ct011841 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:01:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:01:04 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: x1 is of type x2 Message-ID: <20021015010104.GA11749@allusion.net> References: <20021014155124.GA9906@allusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XsQoSWH+UP9D9v3l" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 2182 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 16666 --XsQoSWH+UP9D9v3l Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 11:56:38PM +0100, And Rosta wrote: > Jordan: > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 10:46:40AM -0500, Jordan DeLong wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 01:56:06PM +0100, And Rosta wrote: > > [...] > > > Also I think the original makes a stronger claim than "na bilga" (=3D= =3D it > > > is false that should), so perhaps you should consider using a scalar > > > negator. Something like > > > to'e bilga co tavla fi le'e tai co'e va'o loi sivni > > > bilga co to'e tavla fi le'e tai co'e va'o loi sivni > > > .einai tavla fi le'e tai co'e va'o loi sivni > > > .e'i to'e tavla fi le'e tai co'e va'o loi sivni > > > (or other such thing) > >=20 > > Or you could even just put it in the selbri tag place (for any of the > > above variants, (and others)): > > to'e bilga co tai tavla va'o loi sivni Ahh just realized the above doesn't work anyway: tai needs to be in front of the whole selbri, which would change the meaning, so it would need to be brought into a subordinate clause anyway to keep it, which is probably worse. > > Which is probably a lot better than "fi le'e tai co'e". >=20 > "tai tavla" would meant something like "talk in a zo'e-ish way", > whereas "tavla fi le'e tai co'e" would mean "talk about the co'e > of the zo'e sort", which seems a better translation (at least in > the context of manifold considerations about what makes for a > good translation). Ahh probably true. "tai tavla" could refer to things other than the subject I guess (standing on one foot, etc). > What is the difference between {tai} and {se kai}?=20 tai isn't a ka. se kai gives you a quality found in the whatever, where tai says it is like some other thing in some quality. Something like: mi tavla tai lo'e gerku I talk like a dog mi tavla sekai leka ce'u jai fenki My talking exhibits the quality of it being frenzied I talk crazily --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --XsQoSWH+UP9D9v3l Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline [Attachment content not displayed.] --XsQoSWH+UP9D9v3l--