From sentto-44114-17631-1039192099-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Dec 06 16:04:48 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.87]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KSSZ-0004bY-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:04:43 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-17631-1039192099-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2002 16:28:19 -0000 X-Sender: opoudjis@optushome.com.au X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Dec 2002 16:28:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 33462 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2002 16:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2002 16:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail024.syd.optusnet.com.au) (210.49.20.148) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2002 16:28:19 -0000 Received: from optushome.com.au (c17180.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.155.40]) by mail024.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gB6GSHs11849 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 03:28:17 +1100 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200212061219.HAA17239@mail2.reutershealth.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) From: Nick Nicholas X-Yahoo-Profile: opoudjis MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 03:28:17 +1100 Subject: [lojban] Re: Baseline statement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 3172 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: opoudjis@optushome.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Friday, Dec 6, 2002, at 23:07 Australia/Melbourne, John Cowan wrote: > Nick Nicholas scripsit: > >> Besides, now that I've read the blasted thing, John had anticipated >> this anyway: >> >> Lojban sruti'o = Loglan sruti,o >> Lojban srutio = Loglan srutio >> >> The comma is a phoneme in Loglan transliteration, which does much of >> the work of the Lojban apostrophe. Therefore, sruti'o and srutio are >> distinct in Lojban, and this is not annulled in the Loglan >> transliteration, which also renders them distinctly. Therefore the >> difference between the two remains legit. > > Alas, no, he's right and you and I are wrong. > > The mapping in lujvo is Std "i'o" = Alt "io", since Std "io" can't > occur > in lujvo. The mapping in fu'ivla is Std "i'o" = Alt "i,o" and Std > "io" = > Alt "io". > > So Std "sruti'o" (being a lujvo) maps to Alt "srutio", and "Std" > "srutio" > (being a fu'ivla) maps to Alt "srutio". Bzzzzt. Oh buggery. OK, a couple of things: * Raymond's Tengwar doesn't have commas or dots. Therefore, if the CLL Loglan orthography means that the sruti'o/srutio distinction in Loglan is illegal, then the Raymond Tengwar means that a distinction between lis.te and liste is illegal. And remember, CLL does not say the Loglan transliteration is inherently less 'oddball' than the Tengwar. * The Loglan transliteration clearly isn't quite a full representation of the same phonology in different orthography, but a near enough. * In Loglan terms, srutio is always pronounced as [srutjO] (with a mid-open vowel, whereas normal o is mid-close!) If the rapproachment were to take place, this would mean that Loglanists would have a distinct accent which neutralises the distinction between io and i'o outside of non-Lojban words and attitudinals --- but neutralises it in the direction of [jO] ("yaw"), not [iho]. So if this were ever to have happened seriously, and Loglanists pronounced the forms like Loglan, not just read them like Loglan, then it *would* have represented a change in Lojban phonology. * I don't know how this can be patched, and if I didn't think this whole thing was pointless, I'd rather discard the whole thing in an erratum and just say that i'V and u'V *always* map to i,V and u,V, whatever the morphology of the word. So the loglanists who never came to dinner have a few more commas to deal with. They're getting them in a'i = a,i anyway. So if they have to write: vlatai = vlatai vlata'i = vlata,i I see no good reason why they shouldn't also write srutio = srutio sruti'o = sruti,o * The notion that Loglan transliteration constrains Lojban phonotactics remains perverse. I want the "Get A Grip" reading to apply to all of 2.12. If not, then I would support an erratum adding at the end that "where any of these orthographies fail to make distinctions made in the conventional Roman orthography of Lojban, the latter is regarded as binding for the phonotactics of Lojban." /|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\ | "One must first know that traditionally a Japanese bus has carried || | not only a driver but one or more young girls who stand in the || | aisles and sell tickets, announce stops, and in general console the || | passengers for the inadequacies and discomforts of this transient \ | world." --- Roy Andrew Miller, _The Japanese Language_, p. 251 \ ||||||||www.opoudjis.net|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| | \||||nickn@unimelb.edu.au|||||Transient Passenger|||||Nick Nicholas|||||| ==\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/ ()() ()() ()() To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! 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