From sentto-44114-17526-1039038419-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Dec 04 23:58:59 2002 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.65]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 18JquP-0001JS-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:58:58 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-17526-1039038419-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2002 21:47:00 -0000 X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 4 Dec 2002 21:46:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 68517 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2002 21:46:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2002 21:46:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2002 21:46:59 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18JhMA-00059Z-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 13:46:58 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18JhM4-00059I-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 13:46:52 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 13:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-server4.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.1.43]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18JhLz-000599-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 13:46:47 -0800 Received: from macsrule.com (85.78.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.78.85]) by smtp-server4.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gB4Lkj1c027044 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:46:46 -0500 (EST) To: lojban-list@lojban.org X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis In-Reply-To: <20021201195046.R52499-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) X-archive-position: 3016 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 X-original-sender: rmcivor@macsrule.com X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robert McIvor From: Robert McIvor X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:46:58 -0500 Subject: [lojban] Re: Loglan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 3056 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojban-out@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Dimanche, déce 1, 2002, at 20:16 US/Eastern, Invent Yourself wrote: > On Sun, 1 Dec 2002, Steven Belknap wrote: > >> The non-sequiturs, shifting goals, and outright contradictions are >> present only in your distorted, unfair summaries of my opinions. I >> never >> advocated merging the languages, only in finding a way to facilitate >> the >> transition from Loglan to lojban. I *did* feel unhappy about my lost >> Loglan efforts and *have* since forgotten most of my loglan >> vocabulary - >> these are not mutually incompatible. I have not suggested changing >> lojban, other than to express mild support for the toggling cmavo. > > > You wrote: > > "I can not support a lojban baseline policy statement which does not > cover > Loglan. A joint lojban/Loglan toggling cmavo would satisfy me." > > Threatening to reject the new policy is hardly "expressing mild > support". > > Now, the current baseline does not "reflect" Loglan. You want the next > one > to. That would require a change; a difference between the two. So you > are > suggesting changing Lojban, unless now you want to tire me with a long > argument about how the Lojban language is somehow distinct from the > baseline, and that you can alter the latter without affecting the > former. > > And if you want to encourage the use of a crazy-quilt pidgin of Loglan > and > Lojban mixed in the same sentences, with Lojban cmavo and Loglan gismu, > facilitated by rich use of the toggle you advocate, in order to pander > to > people who in theory don't actually want to learn Lojban and in fact > have > yet to make their presence known, with the hope of inflating the > "numbers" > of "Lojban" speakers, or win the ludicrous propaganda coup of > rapproachment to impress a bystander population of conlangers who don't > really give a damn, and you think such a monstrosity would make life > EASIER for newbies, I lack the time to refute this on its multiple > levels > of sickness. > > I'm sure the significance of the fact that there are no Loglanists > voicing > their support for any of your measures, while one newbie has already > announced discomfort at this Loglan talk is completely lost on you. Go > right on believing that you're defending the interests of newcomers. I intend to comment on this thread in due course. When it arose, I was in transit from Canada to Florida, and I have not yet read the complete thread. I will comment on Steven Belknap's borrowing of a picture from loglan.org, that only the centre figure is still living (me), is 78 years old, and whose interest in Lojban is in the similarities, and to what extent Lojban maintains the objectives set out by JCB for his experiment. I have zero interest in actually learning Lojban vocabulary. TLI accepted in principle the use of hoa/xo'a. Contrary to Steven's assumption, I imagine all Loglanists are aware of Lojban, and any so inactive as not to be aware are unlikely to be more active in the LLG community. Most newcomers to TLI have looked at both languages before deciding to go with TLI. > > >> Helping lojban to thrive is my goal, which has not shifted whatsoever. >> Your goals are unclear to me. Are they clear to you? If so, could you >> share them with us? > > > My goal is to resist any efforts to tamper with the Lojban baseline to > kowtow to a constituency that has never been heard from, in ways that > would be inappropriate even it existed and was clamoring for it. > > > -- > Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow. > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/