Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:57:31 -0800
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban] Re: More stuff
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From: Robin Lee Powell <lojban-out@lojban.org>
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On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 02:41:51AM +1100, Nick Nicholas wrote:
> 1.
> 
> Message: 7
>     Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:37:34 -0600
>     From: Jordan DeLong <lojban-out@lojban.org>
> Subject: Re: Specific example of Sapir-Whorf in English OR How  Lojban   
> made me think more clearly
> 
> 
> > I use big-endian in english, but lojban's specified (I think?  I
> > only remember this from nick/robin's lessons; dunno what, if
> > anything, the book says) to use little endian.
> 
> A lot of this is lore, encoded in Bob's draft textbook, and in
> members'  decisions passed in '92 or something. I don't know whether
> this stuff  counts as baseline. I think the BPFK can also reconsider
> such matters  if they're outside the present baseline (i.e. CLL). And
> lore itself is  repealable; the draft textbook advocated 12 hr time,
> and when I raised  the issue for Lojban For Beginners last year, the
> overwhelming  consensus was 24 hr time (to a large extent because we
> had no elegant  way of combining numerical times with AM/PM, and the
> cmene approach  advocated in the draft textbook didn't look like it
> could deal with  minutes.)
> 
> Whether the BPFK need bother with this kind of issue, I'm not sure.  

Absolutely.  The definitions of detri and temci, at least, should make
clear statements about this.  It's just too much of a hurdle for newbies
otherwise.

"What the hell?  I have to search through the list archives to find out
how to say what date it is?  What the hell kind of language is *this*?"

> Adam proposed ma'i for specifying which kind of possible world is
> being  referred to. I had in mind ti'o as the metalinguistic marker
> for this  kind of thing. Look it up in CLL and tell me if you think it
> can fly.

Assuming you're talking about dates, I was *just* fine with your point
that if one assumes that years are always at least 3 digits and that
months are never expressed alone in pi'e style date strings, there *is*
no ambiguity.

> 2. ka'enai
> 
> My current position on ka'enai: we should not change it, because that  
> exceeds our mandate, as it would cause a major grammar change. 

I debate 'major'.  Having just checked the grammar, I'd suggest that
allowing NAI after CAhA is closer to 'trivial' then 'major'.

This doesn't necessarily change anything, but it's a point I wanted to
make.  It's also an additive-only change.

> If you want to be frisky about whether  diacritics go before or after
> the letter (which tei/foi allow), I say, to hell with you. 

Conan (Arnold Schwarzenegger): "Crom, I have never prayed to you before.
I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were
good men or bad. Why we fought, and why we died. All that matters is
that today, two stood against many. Valor pleases you, so grant me this
one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, the HELL with
you!"

Gets me teary every time.  zo'onai  (The context is important).

> Lojban enforces precedence like there's no tomorrow  in MEX; and it's
> to go all hippy with letterals? You can say either  
> {.ebu .akut.bu} or {e'akut.bu}; you don't need to also be able to say  
> both {tei .ebu ,akutbu foi} and {tei ,akutbu .ebu foi}. What possible  
> point does such freedom serve? As for digraphs, I'd much rather  
> {.a'ebu} than {tei .abu .ebu foi} for the ash (&aelig;)...
> 
> This means that I think tei/foi are pointless, and don't mind what  
> happens to them. 

You go boooyyyyeee!!!   to .iesai .i'esai toi

> OK, I'm going to stop defending And here, because I don't want Robin  
> whaling on my ass. :-) 

You are not defending the aspects of what he said that pissed me off.

In specific, I found his anger at the board offensive, given that the
board was finally doing what everyone I've ever spoken to about the
board has been asking for for years.

-Robin

-- 
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/    ***    I'm a *male* Robin.
.i le pamoi velru'e zo'u jmaji le plibu taxfu
.i le remoi velru'e zo'u mo .i le cimoi velru'e zo'u ba'e prali .uisai
http://www.lojban.org/   ***   to sa'a cu'u lei pibyta'u cridrnoma toi