From sentto-44114-18237-1042035269-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jan 08 06:15:05 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 08 Jan 2003 06:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.74]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 18WGyz-0006LS-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 06:15:01 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-18237-1042035269-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jan 2003 14:14:29 -0000 X-Sender: opoudjis@optushome.com.au X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Jan 2003 14:14:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 16761 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2003 14:14:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jan 2003 14:14:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au) (210.49.20.172) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 14:14:27 -0000 Received: from optushome.com.au (c17180.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au [210.49.155.40]) by mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h08EEQH07127 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 01:14:26 +1100 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-Id: <7E437784-2313-11D7-8794-003065D4EC72@optushome.com.au> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) From: Nick Nicholas X-Yahoo-Profile: opoudjis MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 01:14:26 +1100 Subject: [lojban] Re: open and save Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 3749 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: opoudjis@optushome.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list cu'u la solri > In Turkish, "file" is "dosya" (a collection of papers, from French) and > folder is "klasör" (a ring binder, again from French). .i zdile .i bau le xelso la'ezoigy file gy cu se sinxa zoigy. arxeio gy. noi dunli zoigy. archive gy. .i la'ezoigy folder gy cu se sinxa .ue zoigy. ntosie gy. noi dunli zoigy. binder gy. gi'e ku'i ji'a dunli zoigy dosya gy leka ce'u krasi zoigy dossier gy noi fraso Anti-malglico'ism actually conceals anti-metaphoricism: a file is literally a record, so Lojbanists like to call it that; and metaphors like "ring binder" are hard to glork in general --- unless you already know English. (What happened with dossier going one way in Greek and another in Turkish, OTOH, is probably not the fault of metaphor but of semantic looseness.) But if a metaphor takes over the world, there will still be a sentiment against it in Lojban --- we do aspire to the logical, culture-free language, after all. (Oh, I know the founders luuurve metaphors, and ended up calling tanru that. In some quarters, that's reason enough to avoid them. :-) The calque is what a normal language does. (A really normal language just borrows the form of the word, of course.) But who told you Lojban was a normal language? Dumb to pick Maori as "primitive language obviously too benighted to have word for file"; as my fellow Antipodean Chris pointed out, Maori is going through extensive language planning to ratchet up its prestige, since it does enjoy official status. == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == Upon completing His outburst, God fell silent, standing quietly at the podium for several moments. Then, witnesses reported, God's shoulders began to shake, and He wept. [http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/god_clarifies_dont_kill.html] Dr Nick Nicholas. nickn@unimelb.edu.au http://www.opoudjis.net ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online-No late fees! Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/XfSp7B/XlOFAA/46VHAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/