From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Jan 24 21:21:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Jan 2003 05:21:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 42883 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2003 05:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Jan 2003 05:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2003 05:21:43 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18cIlD-0000Om-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:21:43 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18cIl3-0000OT-00; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:21:33 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp189.chch.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.237.189] helo=dave ident=0) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18cIkr-0000OK-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:21:22 -0800 Received: from mbays.homelinux.org (IDENT:1001@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dave (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h0P5LuAZ026702 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 05:21:56 GMT Received: from localhost (martin@localhost) by mbays.homelinux.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) with ESMTP id h0P5LsA2026699 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 05:21:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: mbays.homelinux.org: martin owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 05:21:54 +0000 (GMT) X-X-Sender: martin@mbays.homelinux.org To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: loi preti be fi lo nincli zo'u tu'e In-Reply-To: <20030124230538.GV7230@digitalkingdom.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 3907 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mbaysATfreeshellDOTorg@flibble.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Martin Bays From: Martin Bays Reply-To: mbaysATfreeshellDOTorg@flibble.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 18372 On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 09:04:53PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 07:36:21PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:46:04PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 01:33:18PM +0000, Martin Bays wrote: > > > To be honest, I think the best solution is to stick with bridi, and define > > some nice lujvo. > > cecyvi'u > > > > > And then if necessary, mexify them with na'u. Have you seen this > > translation by Nick Nicholas of the start of an abstract algebra > > book - > > http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/algebra > > - which goes some way towards doing that? > > I haven't yet read it. .u'uro'a > > I'll do that now. > > Hmmm. Nick seems to be using selcmipi'i for intersect, which is, umm, > insane, IMO. I prefer cec to selcmi, but even ignoring that, pi'i > doesn't even slightly match my concept if intersection; cecysi'umi'u is > my first try. I have a feeling x fa'u + are sometimes used for intersection fa'u union when considering them as abstract algebraic operations - but I agree it's not intuitive. Anyway, I'd say selcmipi'i should be the Cartesian product. How about kaxselcmi and vlinyselcmi? Just an idea. I'm not sure I like using cec, by the way - to me it suggests finite sets, when we need a more general term. Actually, I've just discovered that jo'e, ku'a and pi'u have rafsi (jom, kuz and piv) - though I'm not sure what to stick them to. I guess selcmi would have to do. Now we need 2 or 3 versions of the operations - one for the union/intersection of two sets, one for countably many, and one over an arbitrary set. NN gives lujvo for the first two (selcmipi'i and sosyselcmipi'i). We might just want to have the second, since the first is a special case. The third, continuing the pattern, would I guess be sorselcmipi'i, with place structure "x1 is the intersection over x2" - i.e. go ca'e ko'a sorselcmipi'i ko'e gi ro da zo'u go da cmima ko'a gi da cmima ro de poi cmima ko'e ...I think. Sim. for union. With that it *should* be possible to do all the basic set theory you want, though maybe not always elegantly. Any idea, for example, how best to translate ('scuse amateur ASCII graphics): | | | | A \_/ i i in I ("The union over I of A sub i"), which is the same as | | | | {A : i in I} \_/ i where that big union is my sorselcmipi'i (or sorkuzselcmi)? Do we need yet another lujvo, or is there a nice translation of that set? I don't think {lu'i .abu boi xi .ibu poi .ibu cmima tau .ibu} really works. Clues, anyone? > > > > > I would like to translate something mathematical and > > > > > substantial; got any contacts that would like to let us release > > > > > a translated paper? > > > > > > > > Ummm... I guess I could ask someone. Can you be more specific? Do > > > > you just want some random high-powered maths research? > > > > > > What I'd *really* like to do would be a textbook (or, more likely, a > > > portion thereof), precisely for reasons of comprehensibility. > > > > > > > That's actually a very good idea. What kind of subject do you want? I > > (very very vaguely) know the author of a nice+simple complex analysis > > book, which should be suited to mex. Or else name a subject and I'll > > see what I can do. > > Complex analysis would be cool. I'd also enjoy cryptography, set > theory, or subatomic physics. Game theory would be hella cool. > > Hmmm... > > My old Cryptography professor might actually be willing to let me do his > book. I was supremely fortunate to have > http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/~ajmeneze/ as my crypto prof. > > Unfortunately, Handbook of Applied is already freely available, which > defeats part of my idea (translate something that people wouldn't be > able to easily get in English, at least without paying, and might > actually want). > I'm afraid I don't have any tutors/lecturers who've written anything especially cool... but if the crypto thing doesn't work out give me a shout and I'll see if I can do 'owt. --- #^t'm::>#shs>:#,_$1+9j9"^>h>" < v :>8*0\j" o'u" v" e'i" v".neta"^q> ;z,[; > > ^