From lojbab@lojban.org Mon Jan 13 20:16:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Jan 2003 04:16:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 18021 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2003 04:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jan 2003 04:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao04.cox.net) (68.1.17.241) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2003 04:16:42 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030114041642.NLHZ22825.lakemtao04.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:16:42 -0500 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030113223408.03080010@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:51:21 -0500 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] lojban language names in jbovlaste In-Reply-To: <15d.1a5af776.2b54bba7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 18268 At 08:02 PM 1/13/03 -0500, BestATN@aol.com wrote: >looking at >http: //nehwon.dyn.wiw.org/jbovlaste/languages.html > >i suggest adding the following lojban names for these languages: >portuguese = potybau >greek = xesybau >hebrew = xebybau/brobau > >how did italian not get its own gismu? Because Italy is not a country that speaks one of the 12 core languages considered for Lojban word-making (of which we only used 6, but this wasn't decided when I made the list), nor is it considered one of the fundamental religious cultures of the world, nor is it one of the ancient cultures that is commonly referred to in modern discussion of antiquities (which justified Latin and Greek). Actually, what happened is that JCB had a set of cultural gismu in TLI Loglan that were rather ad hoc. I tried to come up with some set of rules to determine which cultures would get gismu in Lojban, came up with the above 3, and used that as a basis to decide which to consider. JCB DID have a word for Italian, but I could not for the life of me come up with a rule that justified it, that did not also justify too many other countries. Based on population, including Italy would have required including Turkey, Iran, Ethiopia, Nigeria. Based on area, dozens of countries are larger than Italy (I guess I could have used GNP, but it did not occur to me). It seemed to be mere Eurocentrism to coin gismu for European countries when we were sparsely representing other countries. Finally, we figured that it would be trivial to make a lujvo for Italian based on Latin, and we intended to have thousands of lujvo defined by the time we made the Lojban dictionary including many cultural lujvo, so that it would be clear that gismu and lujvo are equally "prestigious" in the language so that we weren't slighting cultures. The latter never happened. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org