From sentto-44114-19118-1048624037-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 12:27:56 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.91]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 18xv1S-0001JZ-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:27:50 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-19118-1048624037-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2003 20:27:19 -0000 X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 25 Mar 2003 20:27:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 78353 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2003 20:27:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Mar 2003 20:27:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 2003 20:27:17 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:50:18 +0000 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:29:08 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 To: cowan Cc: cowan , jjllambias , lojban From: And Rosta X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:28:51 +0000 Subject: [lojban] Re: ancient clicks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 4616 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list John: #And Rosta scripsit: #> John: #> #Jorge Llambias scripsit: #> #> If {tcomoluNmas} is marked as having a different pronunciation #> #> than {tcomolunmas}, I don't see how they can still be called #> #> allophones. #> # #> #Because there are no minimal pairs in which [n] vs. [N] makes the #> #difference. #> #> {tcomoluNmas} and {tcomolunmas} would be such a pair. # #Only if we say they are distinct words, and we don't say that. The #allophony creates allolexy, or vice versa. They would be distinct words in the sense of being distinct targets in production and recognition, even though they have the same semantic and grammatical properties. That is, distinct phonological words, but not distinct lexemes. And phonemic distinctions are those sufficient to create distinct phonological words. That would make n & N contrastive, even if Lojban stipulated that they could never signal a contrast between distinct lexemes. I can't think of any natural language analogues of this. --And. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/