From sentto-44114-19611-1052067567-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 04 10:00:13 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 04 May 2003 10:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.81]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CMqE-0005ty-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 09:59:58 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-19611-1052067567-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2003 16:59:27 -0000 X-Sender: oskar2379@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 16:59:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 25190 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 16:59:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 16:59:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 16:59:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2003 16:59:24 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20030504154745.GX28808@ccil.org> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "oskar2379" X-Originating-IP: 68.168.163.103 X-Yahoo-Profile: oskar2379 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:59:24 -0000 Subject: [lojban] Re: Some ideas/questions (long) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 5110 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: oskar2379@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list > > But why is this seperation so important? > > Because tanru are intentionally imprecise. They allow speakers and > listeners to communicate intuitively. Lujvo are by intention as well-defined > as gismu, which means they may be broad and vague, but not ambiguous. Well, lujvo offer no more precision by just looking at them than tanru do, its just that they have precise definitions in the dictionary. This is the problem I was addressing when adding cmavo inbetween them to specify. That way, no lujvo would ever need to be defined. > It's all right for there to be missing information from tanru: > the price of infinite precision is infinite verbosity. If we > add an element for cause, the next question will be "But just *how* > does the liquid cause craziness?". And if we pin that down, the > question can be repeated indefinitely. Well, we _could_ pin it down, but with a cmavo, not another place in the predicate (assuming lojban has a cmavo for 'by means of' or 'using method...'). > My meaning was that Lojban doesn't really classify relations at all: > the gismu list is a large and disorderly bag whose merit is that it > blankets semantic space, not that it divides it up neatly. But there must be some pattern that that everything follows. If something doesn't fit the pattern we know there is something wrong with it. Using this method we can eventually have a system that is completely regular. > It *could* be expressed as a lujvo. For that matter, "mamta" could be > expressed as a lujvo too. The gismu are not intended to be a minimal > basis set. You're right, mamta should be parent-female :) Maybe that will be the first thing I try to do...split gismu up. It will take a while but I'm only 16 so I have a lot of time. > > But if it *depends* on something, wouldn't the statement be > > conditional? > > I understand that the reaction also depends on x1, but x1 is what > > commits the action so that's a given. > > Nothing "given" about it, or rather the dependency on both subject and > environment is what is "given". In another worldview, the subject would > be mostly irrelevant, and all the credit for the response would be > due to the environment. But x4 seems to just serve to narrow it down, as if x1 *only* responds this way under these circumstances. x1 on the other hand is essential; its the agent (I'm not sure if this is the right term...I have never taken a linguistics class). But it gets even more confusing because x4 implies that x1's response is habitual; x1 *habitually* reacts this way under these circumstances. > > Right, so the state of x2 after it has been reflected is x4 (sorry if > > my wording is confusing). > > But that's not a change in x2. The fact that you are or are not > reflected in a mirror at some instant does not represent any alteration > to your state, any more than the fact that I am or am not looking at you > does. Your wording is not confusing, but it is (metaphysically) confused. Well, if you want to get technical about it, that's true. But the meaning acts the same way as when x2 is actually physically changed. That's all I meant. > > In other words, it refers to the part of x2 that was changed (the > > location). In minra, the part of x2 that was changed is the image. > > A location (and an image) are not parts! Maybe 'parts' was the wrong word...they are the part of the object that is affected (dangiit there I go using the word again ><). 'To go' deals with location, 'to freeze' deals with temperature, 'to reflect' deals with image. I have an idea. Compare it to the verb 'imitate' since they're meanings are similar. I will make up a predicate since I dont think lojban has one: x1 imitates x2 to observer/point x3 as x4 x2 is the direct object, x3 is the audience, and x4 is what x1 represents x2 as (the result of the action). The meaning acts as if it actually changes x2, even though it doesn't. > > But then again, I may > > have misunderstood x3. Is it sort of like 'by standard/frame of > > referance'? It sort of messes up the system because all the other 'by > > standards' are attributive like 'foolish' and 'small'. > > Not really. The paradigm case is that you (x3) look into a mirror (x1) > and see the image (x4) of a cat (x2). The image of the cat is not the > cat; exactly what the image is, depends on where you are. 'the image of a cat'. The word 'of' usually implies association, as if it were a *part* of the cat. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/