From sentto-44114-19616-1052081519-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 04 13:52:40 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 04 May 2003 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.74]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19CQTG-0006yL-01 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 13:52:30 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-19616-1052081519-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2003 20:52:00 -0000 X-Sender: cowan@mercury.ccil.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 20:51:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 84022 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 20:51:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 20:51:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mercury.ccil.org) (192.190.237.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 20:51:59 -0000 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19CQSk-0006Ts-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 16:51:58 -0400 To: oskar2379 Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <20030504205158.GF28808@ccil.org> References: <20030504154745.GX28808@ccil.org> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-eGroups-From: John Cowan From: John Cowan X-Yahoo-Profile: johnwcowan MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:51:58 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: Some ideas/questions (long) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 5115 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: cowan@ccil.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list oskar2379 scripsit: > Well, we _could_ pin it down, but with a cmavo, not another place in > the predicate (assuming lojban has a cmavo for 'by means of' > or 'using method...'). It does, but those cmavo are derived from gismu places! > But there must be some pattern that that everything follows. I just don't believe that. > You're right, mamta should be parent-female :) > Maybe that will be the first thing I try to do...split gismu up. It > will take a while but I'm only 16 so I have a lot of time. Fire away. > But x4 seems to just serve to narrow it down, as if x1 *only* > responds this way under these circumstances. x1 on the other hand is > essential; its the agent (I'm not sure if this is the right term...I > have never taken a linguistics class). x1 is the agent, indeed. But I am pointing out that what you think essential and what you think inessential is a product of your worldview. Quine shows that if you replace the denotation of all terms systematically with their complements (so that the term "Oskar" which previously denoted Oskar now means the-entire-universe-except-Oskar), everything works fine: all true statements remain true and all false ones false. More generally, a (first-order) theory cannot compel the domain of interpretation: every first-order theory has an interpretation in which all the terms refer solely to integers! > But it gets even more confusing because x4 implies that x1's response > is habitual; x1 *habitually* reacts this way under these > circumstances. Possibly but not necessarily. If you mean that, use the "habitual" tense cmavo. For a counterexample, consider the case in which I (x1) remain silent (x2) while being tickled (x3) when I am trying to hide (x4). This is definitely not my habitual response to being tickled! > 'the image of a cat'. The word 'of' usually implies association, as > if it were a *part* of the cat. The "of" in this case is just part of the grammatical machinery of English, sort of equivalent to Lojban "be". When I speak of "the mother of John", I don't imply that John's mother is part of John. Alternatively, you wind up saying that everything John stands in relation to is part of John, which reduces the idea of "part" to a nullity. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. --The Hobbit ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/