From lojbab@lojban.org Sun May 11 18:09:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 12 May 2003 01:09:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 13512 invoked from network); 12 May 2003 01:09:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 May 2003 01:09:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 May 2003 01:09:20 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19F1oe-0002fm-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 11 May 2003 18:09:20 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19F1oW-0002fT-00; Sun, 11 May 2003 18:09:12 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 11 May 2003 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao01.cox.net ([68.1.17.244]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19F1oN-0002fK-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 11 May 2003 18:09:03 -0700 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.92.1]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030512010833.VRWW8337.lakemtao01.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Sun, 11 May 2003 21:08:33 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030511205922.03098540@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:08:30 -0400 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: zi, vi, ca, bu'u In-Reply-To: <20030511211605.29612.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3EBEA11C.5040703@epfl.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 5219 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Robert LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 19699 At 02:16 PM 5/11/03 -0700, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > > On irc, I said: ma nuzba vi le norge (the example xorxes quotes on phpbb) > > > > Is this incorrect or just not as accurate as it should be? > >That's hard to say. In Loglan, there is no {bu'u} and {vi} is what >they use as the space equivalent of {ca}. In early Lojban that was >the case too. The introduction of {bu'u} occurred later, and the >(mis)use of {vi} for that function was never succesfully erradicated. >So that use of vi is sanctiones by usage although technically >incorrect. The answer to this that has let the old Loglan-like usage be grandfathered in, is that "zi" means approximate to in time and "vi" means approximate to in space. "approximate" to does not rule out colocation/simultaneity and it does allow one to express the very close association in time or space. > > Usage tends to favour {ca} in such sentences as "mi klama ca le cabdei", > > but {vi} in "mi citka vi la bastn" > >Correct. That usage was carried over from Loglan. And I would interpret that as meaning that he ate somewhere in the Boston area, just as "mi xabju vi la uacintn" and "mi xabju vi la ferfaks tcad" (Fairfax City) but in fact I don't live ne'i either of them. But it wouldn't be wrong for me to use "vi" even if I did live "ne'i". Similarly, I like the use of "zi" for "on or about" when asked to specify a time for a meeting. It would not mean to me that we will meet a minute or two before or after the specified time, merely that the specified starting time is approximate (which it usually is for meetings). lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org