From mark@kli.org Mon Jun 02 07:29:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mark@kli.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77731 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2003 14:29:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2003 14:29:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pi.meson.org) (66.134.26.207) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2003 14:29:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 21518 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2003 14:29:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO kli.org) (@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 2 Jun 2003 14:29:28 -0000 Message-ID: <3EDB5F40.1010100@kli.org> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:29:20 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pierre Abbat Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] le pareremo'o selsa'a References: <200306012314.57459.phma@webjockey.net> In-Reply-To: <200306012314.57459.phma@webjockey.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Mark E. Shoulson" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=3263785 X-Yahoo-Profile: seqram2 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 20036 Pierre Abbat wrote: >On Sunday 01 June 2003 22:03, sshiskom wrote: > > >>le pareremo'o selsa'a >> >>.i la'e lu .e'u fe lo zdani be lo cevni cu klama li'u >>mi selgei >> >> > >.i mi gleki le nu mi te cusku lu .e'u mi klama le jegvo bo zdani li'u >God's name is used here, so the translation should say {jegvo} or {iaves}. >{mi} should be {mi'o} or {ma'a}, but that wouldn't scan. > I find Pierre's reading easier to follow, and also similar in structure to the original. >>.i doi ierusalem. >>mi'a ne'i lo do bitmu cu zvati >> >> > >The original is "`omdim hayu ragleinu bsha`areikh". In Lojban, lo jamfu sanli >naje te sanli, and I'm not sure what to do with "inside your gates". I didn't >even know that Hebrew had a progressive tense; I thought it was peculiar to >Aramaic. > It's "`omdOT hayu ragleinu". Legs are feminine (one of the few decent rules for gender in Hebrew: if it's on your body, and you have more than one of it, it's feminine). The tense is currently called "present tense" but it's really a participle (can be used as a noun or adjective) and has an imperfective meaning. I always understood the verse to be metaphorical, that our legs were *standing* (upright/proud/etc) while in your gates. *If* you want to have that meaning (and I'm not saying you should), there's always .o'a. If the emphasis is there, again, one could have lo jamfu cu sanli. >>.i do selzba gi'e denmi je tcadu >> >>.i loi natmi po'u loi jegvo je natmi >>mu'i le nu jarco le nu ckire lo cmene be lo cevni >>ku ku ku ku >>ja'i le tcaci tu klama >> >> > >I can't hear {ku ku ku ku} without thinking of the birds: lenu punji le sovda >be lo'e cipnrkuku kukuku zvati le zdani be lo'e na'e cipnrkuku kuku. > I have a lot of trouble following the Lojban, while the Hebrew isn't that complex. Well, okay, it may be somewhat obscure in meaning, but the grammar isn't hard. I'm not sure either what to make of "yerushalayim hab'nuyah k'`ir shechubrah lahh yachdav"; something like "Jerusalem the built-up is like a city that is all knit together." I would take "b'nuyah" to be more an adjective than part of the main predicate. (And why the switch to second person, btw?) Something like "la .ierucaLYiim. (n/p)oi jai vi dinju..." maybe? (noi or poi is another question of interpretation. As a prayer in exile, "poi" makes more sense. As a song of praise at the time, "noi") >If you'd like to contribute to the Bible translation, ask Robin Lee Powell for >a cvs account. I haven't done anything with it in a long time, and if you do, >that'll encourage me to get back into it. The English version in the cvs is >Douay, but don't let that bind you. Douay calls that psalm 121. > There are some small differences in numbering (esp. of verses) among versions of the Bible. In Jewish tradition, it's #122. (oh... there's also the "song of ascents, of David" verse at the beginning that should be included). ~mark