From araizen@newmail.net Fri Jul 18 13:38:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81411 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2003 20:37:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2003 20:37:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jul 2003 20:37:58 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19dbzJ-0002r2-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:37:57 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19dbz8-0002qe-00; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:37:47 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout3.netvision.net.il ([194.90.9.24]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19dbz0-0002qK-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:37:38 -0700 Received: from default ([62.0.110.221]) by mxout3.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HI800L85ASQJM@mxout3.netvision.net.il> for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:22:04 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:22:57 +0200 Subject: [lojban] Re: Lojban Vs. Esperanto To: "lojban-list@lojban.org" Message-id: <0HI800L86ASRJM@mxout3.netvision.net.il> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 4.1 [eg] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 5916 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: araizen@newmail.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Adam Raizen Reply-To: araizen@newmail.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=3063669 X-Yahoo-Profile: araizen X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 20398 de'i li 2003-07-17 ti'u li 18:50:00 la'o zoi. c1tk .zoi cusku di'e >>From what I read, Esperanto uses 2 forms of nouns, the nominative >("subject") and accusative ("object"), allowing the 2 nouns and the >verb to be arranged in any order -- but this potentially causes >problems when the "object" of one relation turns out to be the >"subject" of another relation, in the case "John killed the man >who had the knife". In this case the only relief seems to be to fall >back on the conventions of Indo-European grammar, but I may be wrong >here. Esperanto has fairly free word order, but it's not *that* free. That sentence in Esperanto is "Johano mortigis la viron, kiu havis la trancxilon". The relative pronoun "kiu" ("who") is in the nominative, thus clearly showing that the man is the subject of the subordinate clause. You can't move nouns out of the clause that contains them, and I would be surprised if it's possible in any language (it certainly isn't in Lojban). mu'o mi'e .adam.