From sentto-44114-20553-1061738294-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 08:18:56 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 24 Aug 2003 08:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.67]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qwdk-00019p-00 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 08:18:48 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-20553-1061738294-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2003 15:18:15 -0000 X-Sender: phma@ixazon.dynip.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7815 invoked from network); 24 Aug 2003 15:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Aug 2003 15:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blackcat.ixazon.lan) (208.150.110.21) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Aug 2003 15:18:12 -0000 Received: by blackcat.ixazon.lan (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 385A33506; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:17:53 +0000 (UTC) Organization: dis To: lojban@yahoogroups.com User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <87k793goks.fsf@imladris.lrde.epita.fr> In-Reply-To: <87k793goks.fsf@imladris.lrde.epita.fr> Message-Id: <200308241117.52143.phma@webjockey.net> From: Pierre Abbat MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:17:51 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: Question about moi and its explanation in 'What is Lojban?' Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 6049 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@webjockey.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sunday 24 August 2003 09:41, Raphaël Poss wrote: > Hi, > > I was browsing through the 'What is Lojban?' sections lately > when I found the following : > > 'mi papamoi tavla do' > -> 'I am the 11th talker to you' > > If I remember my Lojban lessons correctly, this gloss is > wrong, because 'mi papamoi tavla do' is equivalent to 'mi do > papamoi tavla' or 'do mi papamoi se tavla', which all mean > something like : > > "you and I are both involved in a 11th tavla-relationship > where I am the talker and you the listener". > > which cannot, IMHO, be interpreted as : > > "you're my 11th listener" > > but instead as: > > "having been 10 previous talkings, we're both > participating in the 11th". > > > > A studious Lojban learner probably can make the difference > after some work with the language. At which point the initial > wrongness of the gloss in 'What is Lojban?' can be observed as > a forgivable error to make the gloss more easy to comprehend > for a beginner (this is what I'm thinking). > > > Now, the question is, how can one express the meaning of "I am > the 11th talker to you" in Lojban ? Precisely, a sentence that > states that "you being the listener for at least 11 times, I > am in charge of talking the 11th" ? > > I tend to favor: > > mi papamoi tavla be do > > However, I'm not sure that sentence conveys the meaning I'm > looking for. What do you think ? {mi papamoi le'i tavla be do}. {papamoi tavla} is a tanru, so it is ambiguous between "x1 is the 11th talker to x2", "x2 is the 11th person x1 talked to", "x1 and x2 talk the 11th time", "x1 talks to x2 about the 11th thing", etc. {be} makes no difference in {mi papamoi tavla be do}. phma -- .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga .icu'u la ma'atman. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/