From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Aug 26 09:28:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73996 invoked from network); 26 Aug 2003 16:28:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Aug 2003 16:28:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 2003 16:28:33 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19rgdD-0008MW-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:25:19 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19rgc2-0008Ko-00; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:24:06 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postal.seas.wustl.edu ([128.252.145.2]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19rgbl-0008Jh-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:23:49 -0700 Received: from clarion.cec.wustl.edu (clarion.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.21.3]) by postal.seas.wustl.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7QFffF04370 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:41:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (adam@localhost) by clarion.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7QGNgXX014267 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:23:42 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: clarion.cec.wustl.edu: adam owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:23:41 -0500 (CDT) To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] vocative questions Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Status: No, -5.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Report: -5.4/5.0 ---- Start SpamAssassin results -5.40 points, 5 required; * 0.0 -- Message-Id indicates a non-spam MUA (Pine) * -0.4 -- Has a X-Authentication-Warning header * 0.4 -- BODY: Stop with the offers, coupons, discounts etc! * -5.4 -- BODY: Bayesian classifier says spam probability is 1 to 10% [score: 0.0191] ---- End of SpamAssassin results X-archive-position: 6050 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam@pubcrawler.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: "Adam D. Lopresto" From: "Adam D. Lopresto" Reply-To: adam@pubcrawler.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 20532 I've been wondering about this for a while, and haven't come to any good conclusions, so I thought I'd bring it to the list. The vocatives are very useful, but what I find myself wanting to do is query whether a particular vocative holds for the person I'm speaking to. "You there?" (re'i) or "Do you understand?/Have you got that?" (je'e) or "Ok?/Will you obey?" (vi'o). Is there a good way to do this? I see a few possibilities, with different problems: xu We could use a form like "re'ixu", but logically that would seem to mean "Is it that case that I'm ready to receive?", which wouldn't be what's wanted at all. I guess it could be special cased, but that doesn't seem right. pei pei does different things depending on where it is, actually serving two separate purposes. After UI, it asks for a CAI indicating scale, but in other places it asks for a UI indicating general attitude. A strict reading of "re'ipei", then, would be "I'm here, what do you think of that?". Note that the refgram supports this view, parsing "ta'apei" as "Will the speaker yeild?" ("I interupt; what are you gonna do about it?"). Nonetheless, extending pei's behaviour after UI to also apply after COI would seem a minor change, and probably very useful. Note that "je'epei" and "re'ipei" have seen some marginal usage already. something else Suggestions very welcome. -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ "If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" --Will Rogers