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To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Question about moi and its explanation in 'What is Lojban?'
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:17:51 -0400
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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@webjockey.net>
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On Sunday 24 August 2003 09:41, Rapha=EBl Poss wrote:
> Hi,
>
>         I  was browsing through the  'What is Lojban?' sections lately
>         when I found the following :
>
>           'mi papamoi tavla do'
>           -> 'I am the 11th talker to you'
>
>         If I  remember  my Lojban  lessons  correctly, this  gloss  is
>         wrong, because 'mi papamoi  tavla do' is  equivalent to 'mi do
>         papamoi tavla' or  'do mi papamoi  se  tavla', which all  mean
>         something like :
>
>             "you and I are  both involved in a 11th tavla-relationship
>             where I am the talker and you the listener".
>
>         which cannot, IMHO, be interpreted as :
>
>             "you're my 11th listener"
>
>         but instead as:
>
>             "having  been     10   previous  talkings,    we're   both
>             participating in the 11th".
>
>
>
>         A studious Lojban  learner  probably can make  the  difference
>         after some work with the  language. At which point the initial
>         wrongness of the gloss in 'What is Lojban?' can be observed as
>         a forgivable error  to make the  gloss more easy to comprehend
>         for a beginner (this is what I'm thinking).
>
>
>         Now, the question is, how can one express the meaning of "I am
>         the 11th talker to you" in Lojban ? Precisely, a sentence that
>         states that "you  being the listener for  at least 11 times, I
>         am in charge of talking the 11th" ?
>
>         I tend to favor:
>
>            mi papamoi tavla be do
>
>         However, I'm  not sure that  sentence  conveys the meaning I'm
>         looking for. What do you think ?

{mi papamoi le'i tavla be do}. {papamoi tavla} is a tanru, so it is ambiguo=
us=20
between "x1 is the 11th talker to x2", "x2 is the 11th person x1 talked to"=
,=20
"x1 and x2 talk the 11th time", "x1 talks to x2 about the 11th thing", etc.=
=20
{be} makes no difference in {mi papamoi tavla be do}.

phma
--=20
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.