From ragnarok@pobox.com Mon Sep 29 13:57:13 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.intrex.net ([209.42.192.250]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1A454m-00089L-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:57:00 -0700 Received: from craig [209.42.212.114] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC85FC6E0036; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:56:37 -0400 From: "Craig" To: , Subject: [lojban] Re: Japanese has no subjunctive?? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:55:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: ragnarok@pobox.com [209.42.212.114] X-archive-position: 6310 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ragnarok@pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list >>> My wife reports that subjunctive grammar, e.g. if I had studied, >>> I would have done better on the test, are very difficult, since >>> none of this grammar is found in Japanese. >>> >>> If this is true, and I find it unlikely, how do the Japanese talk >>> about subjunctives? Or do they simply (and I find this >>> unimaginable) not do so? >>Context is all. See the Chinese example in >>the Red Book, Chapter 13, examples 12.5 to 12.7 >>(http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter13.html#e12d5 ) How very odd. I had some text here that didn't go through. Here it is again: Notice that English fails to use a present subjunctive construction in many cases; the example above, for instance, is a past subjunctive. A present analogue might be "If I studied, I would do better on the test" - but it is common to replace this with "If I study, I will do better on the test". Also, consider the Spanish sentence "Busco una mujer que sea guapa". It means "I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful", but because the subjunctive "sea" is used rather than the indicative "es", it indicates that there is not a specific woman. "Busco una mujer que es guapa" would be a (rather wordy) way of saying that there is a woman I am looking for and that she is beautiful. (Notice how elegantly Spanish handles the old Lojban argument about "Any"!) This is a use of the subjunctive for which there is no parallel in English. We have to guess from context whether "I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful" means that there is a specific woman I seek or not. -- .kreig.daniyl. "Are we adjorned? Or just completely ignoring order?" -Jordan DeLong ragnarok@pobox.com teucer@bnomic.org