From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Sep 14 14:44:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35445 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2003 21:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Sep 2003 21:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2003 21:44:44 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19yefZ-0003J2-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:44:33 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19yee7-0003H3-00; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:43:03 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host2-4.remarkablehosting.net ([208.186.130.4]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19yedy-0003Gl-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:42:54 -0700 X-ClientAddr: 209.234.96.194 Received: from xahlee.org ([209.234.96.194]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by host2-4.remarkablehosting.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8ELgW824914; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:42:32 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:24:07 -0700 Subject: [lojban] Re: brivla se brivla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: lojban-list@lojban.org To: arj@nvg.org, Craig In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ILON-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-archive-position: 6164 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: xah@xahlee.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: xah From: xah Reply-To: xah@xahlee.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 20646 if we use the lisp notation: (function_name arg1 arg2 ...) then "mi klama do" would be (klama mi do) or ((se klama) do mi) where the function "se" modifies the function "klama" to return a new function that is klama with its first two args swapped. (i'm assuming the whole lojban can be put into this syntax?) Now suppose we have a tanru "f2 f1" where f2 is the modifier, what would be the lisp notation be? (for example, in "mi sutra klama do", sutra is f2 and klama is f1) i thought it is ((f2 f1) x1 x2) but apparently this is wrong from your answers. looks like it is (f2 (f1 x1 x2)) but now then i don't quite understand this, because the first argument to f2 is now a complete selbri, and that often wouldn't make sense. Is this in fact the tanru semantic? thanks for helping on this intricacy. Xah xah@xahlee.org http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html On Sunday, September 14, 2003, at 10:19 AM, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, xah wrote: > > > on reading _What is lojban_ edited by Nick Nicholas & John Cowan, > > Chapter 3. Diagrammed Summary of Lojban Grammar (comp.html), middle > on > > tanru, i got confused about tanru where a conversion 'se' is placed > in > > between brivla. > > > > what does it mean when se is place between brivla? > > It means that you have a tanru, consisting of the first (unconverted) > brivla, which modifies the second (converted) brivla. > > > i thought it is not legal but the doc says otherwise. If i say > > > >   mi sutra klama do > > "I quickly come to you" > > > > > with the use of se it would be > > > >   do se sutra klama mi > > "You quickly come to me". Y'know, "sutra" is not a very good example > here, > because both its places gloss as "quick" - the x1 is the agent who is > quick, and x2 is the action that is being performed quickly by the > agent. > So let us invent another example: > > 1.  mi dunda jarco do = >    (one interpretation) "I show you the donator" > > 2.  mi se dunda jarco do = >    (one interpretation) "I show you the present" > > If you want to convert the entire tanru, you need "ke" to keep the > conversion cmavo from binding closely to only one brivla: > > 3.  do se ke dunda jarco mi >     Has the same meaning as example 1. > > Hope this helps. > > -- > Arnt Richard Johansen                                > http://arj.nvg.org/ > På hjul er du kjørende. >