From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Oct 07 13:49:11 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50904 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2003 20:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Oct 2003 20:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Oct 2003 20:49:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.22) id 1A6ylZ-0003nl-MK for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:49:09 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A6yky-0003nC-41; Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:48:32 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tmailb1.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.168.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A6ykW-0003n0-D4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:48:04 -0700 Received: from modem-805.wolf.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.131.37] helo=thedave.homelinux.org) by tmailb1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1A6yk4-0001RC-Dn for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:47:36 +0100 Received: from thedave.homelinux.org (IDENT:1001@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thedave.homelinux.org (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h97Ll3xC008156 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:47:04 GMT Received: from localhost (martin@localhost) by thedave.homelinux.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) with ESMTP id h97LkwZq008131 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:47:03 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: thedave.homelinux.org: martin owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:46:56 +0000 (GMT) X-X-Sender: martin@thedave.homelinux.org To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: consolation In-Reply-To: <20031007193634.27576.qmail@web41901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 6375 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mbays@freeshell.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Martin Bays From: Martin Bays Reply-To: mbays@freeshell.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 20857 On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > --- Martin Bays wrote: > > So what brivla unambiguously corresponds to mo'u, in the way sisti does to > > co'u? > > Let's see. > > {mulno} is not problematic when the x1 involves a change of state. > {le nu klama cu mulno} says that the going is complete, i.e. that > the goer has reached the destination. Similarly {le nu binxo > cu mulno} and {le nu zbasu cu mulno} are clear. > > The problem appears when x1 is a state. Does {le nu mi gleki > cu mulno} mean that my happiness is complete, or that I'm no > longer happy? States don't have a temporal completion point, > so a state is complete when it is in some sense saturated, > if I could not be happier then my happiness is complete. > That is what I take {mulno} to mean when x1 is a state. > > Now, as to {co'u} and {mo'u}. > > {sisti} does not quite correspond to {co'u}, because it has > an x1. The correspondence would be co'a-cfari, co'u-tolcfa > > mi co'a gleki -- le nu mi gleki cu cfari > mi co'u gleki -- le nu mi gleki cu tolcfa > > {mulno} does not describe a change, so it corresponds to {ba'o} > rather than to {mo'u}, for events that involve changes: > > mi ba'o klama le zarci -- le nu mi klama le zarci cu mulno > > {mo'u} corresponds (for change events) to {mulbi'o}: > > mi mo'u klama le zarci -- le nu mi klama le zarci cu mulbi'o > > States don't have a natural ending point, so {mi mo'u gleki} > is not that meaningful. I wouldn't mind interpreting it as > "I achieve complete happiness", though. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > OK, that's clear, and it looks like I'd managed to misread the definitions of both mulno *and* sisti. So can that be summarised as - - whenever {le nu broda} is of an event type which has a mo'u (i.e a process), {le nu broda cu mulno} <==> {pu mo'u broda} ==> {ba'o broda} - for states (and activities?), {le nu broda cu mulno} means something along the lines of broda being as true as possible during the state/activity. - for point-events...? Both interpretations make sense. - for objects, mulno's other, three-place structure applies. mu'o