From viric@vicerveza.homeunix.net Thu Nov 06 10:07:23 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:07:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from yuha.menta.net ([212.78.128.42]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AHoXJ-0003pU-01 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:07:13 -0800 Received: from gibson.menta.net ([212.78.128.22]) by yuha.menta.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HNXZQM02.R37 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:08:46 +0100 Received: from vicerveza.atutiplen.net ([62.57.139.16]) by gibson.menta.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 gibson Mar 14 2002 21:29:48) with ESMTP id HNXZTQ01.SZB for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:10:38 +0100 Received: from llimona (llimona [192.168.1.3]) by vicerveza.atutiplen.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504A2A414 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:15:08 +0100 (CET) Received: by llimona (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5282F1BF8B13; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:08:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:08:03 +0100 From: Llu'is Batlle i Rossell To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: lluis's pronunciation Message-ID: <20031106180803.GA2912@llimona.atutiplen.net> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20031106124804.31680.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> <20031106130708.GE1461@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031106130708.GE1461@mercury.ccil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 6586 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: viric@vicerveza.homeunix.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 08:07:08AM -0500, John Cowan wrote: > Jorge Llamb?as scripsit: > > > I hear a regular trilled "r". I tend to prefer the flap rather than the > > trill for Lojban (Spanish "r" rather than "rr"). CLL lists the trill > > first among the permitted variants, but it says that in the case of "r" > > all of the variations are equally acceptable. > > Yes, as is true for most of the other letters. However, my understanding > of Spanish phonology is that initial "r", though so written, is > typically rendered as a trill: certainly there is no opposition in > initial position between "r" and "rr". Yes, I tend to trill 'r'. I won't do that anymore; I have to get used to flap 'r'. I'm into Lojban, Russian and Esperanto.... and flapped 'r' is prefered over trilled 'r'. And yes, "r" are exactly the same in Catalan as in Spanish (initial r, double r, r before consonants...) > > > I don't hear ".ubu" for the fifth letter though. It sounds like > > ".obu" again, while the other "u"s sound fine to me. > > I heard that also. > mmmm Sorry. I read "abu ebu ibu obu ybu". hehehehe I forgot 'ubu'. :) > In addition, "se cmene" and "te smuni" sound like "ze jmene" and "te zmuni" > to me. Fortunately, "jmene" and "zmuni" cannot exist, but "ze" for "se" > is more serious. It's important not to obliterate voicing distinctions > anywhere in Lojban. Mmmm there are two kinds of "t" (Russian have the two ones). One is like the spanish 't', and the other one is the English 't'. In russian, there are soft vowels, which soften the consonant just before the vowel. For example, "ye" vowel after a "t" ("tye"), is pronounced as a . But if you write "te", it's pronounced as . Maybe I did a English "t" when I shouldn't. Anyway... I don't read any "se cmene" or "te smuni". I read "te cmene" and "se smuni". :) About "smuni" and "zmuni", it's hard for me to pronounce a non-sounding consonant before a sounding consonant (soi vo'a). Languages like Catalan or Russian have rules for that... for example, a final sounding consonant is converted to the non-sounding equivalent (d to t, g to k, ...). The same happens for sounding consonants before non-sounding. And about "non-sounding before sounding", we have some examples in catalan, but they're very specific: "viatge" for example; that, lojbanized, is written "viAd,jy". I think we're not able to say "viAt,jy". Even though, that catalan example is an easier case than "smuni", because we have a syllabe break between the two consonants. Those situations (Russian and Catalan) are based in rules of pronunciation. I mean, Russian and Catalan rules for pronouncing words SAY you have to change between sounding-nonsounding depending on the case. About saying "ze" for "se".... I think I haven't done that. We have that sounds in Catalan, and I think I difference them very well. Maybe the confusion is between expecting "se" when I was saying "te". What I've learnt is that I must be more rigid to the sounds when I talk in lojban. I may have thought that I had more margin when pronouncing. I'll try to be as rigid as possible now. :) Thank you very much for your time and your answers. -- "... el quid de la qüestió està en l'educació: en la filosofia didàctica, l'opció ignorància hauria d'existir: tu què vols ser? Jo, enginyer; jo, metge; jo, ignorant: és a dir, vull aprendre a viure però no vull saber-ho tot." -- Pau Riba, entrevista a "Paper de Vidre", núm. 5