From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Nov 15 09:46:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70933 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2003 17:46:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2003 17:46:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2003 17:46:33 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.22) id 1AL4U7-0005cq-9w for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:45:23 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AL4Td-0005cG-2L; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:44:53 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AL4TM-0005bw-Qe for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:44:37 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8C731ECF for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:45:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from bilkent.edu.tr (ppp109.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.111.109]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41082717A for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:45:10 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <3FB66902.2010004@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:57:22 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031016 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lojban] Re: Articles References: <1068484392.162.64517.m12@yahoogroups.com> <001a01c3a7c4$415628a0$fe7aa8c0@ONEOF> In-Reply-To: <001a01c3a7c4$415628a0$fe7aa8c0@ONEOF> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020531 X-archive-position: 6716 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-From: robin From: robin Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 21197 Stefan "1of3" Koch wrote: > Hi. > > I don't understand all of Pierre's translations. IMHO "lo ci gerku" should > be "one or more of three real dogs". It parses like {that which is [real (three dogs)]}, implying that the set of dogs that exist has three members. If what you mean by "one or more of three real dogs" is that three dogs exist in the world and you are talking about one of them, then fine. [Anything with "lo" has an implicit inner quanitifier of "ro", and thus refers to _all_ the things which are indicated by the sumti. If you change the implicit "ro" to "ci", you are making a statement about the total number indicated by the sumti. This is not generally very useful, though I suppose a dogmatic monotheist could say "lo pa cevni".] > And I always thought in front of mass or set descriptors there could be only > numbers smaller than 1. This is not an absolute rule, but it is true for all practical purposes. A common mistake is to think "re loi gerku" means "two packs of dogs". It does, but the two packs have exactly the same members! > Furthermore I would add that the translations are quite unprecise. None of > the descriptors really marks definitness (although the le-series might be > considered more definite than the lo-series). Yes, by virtue of the fact that "le" implies something specific that the speaker has in mind. This means it often stands duty for "the" as opposed to "a", though this is not logically implied, and could be considered malglico. For example: mi viska lo gerku .i le gerku cu batci mi might be understood (especially by an English reader) as "I saw a dog. the dog bit me." However, strictly speaking, "le gerku" could be a different dog I have in mind, or something which is not actually a dog. A more Lojbanic rendering might be mi viska lo gerku .i lo bi'unai gerku cu batci mi though most people would probably just use "ri" - "lo bi'unai gerku" is something like "that self-same dog." robin.tr -- "Certitude is possible for those who only own one encyclopedia." - Robert Anton Wilson Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin