From sentto-44114-21345-1070348598-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Dec 01 23:03:56 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:03:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.67]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AR4Zb-0002ZW-AI for lojban-in@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:03:51 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-21345-1070348598-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.157] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2003 07:03:18 -0000 X-Sender: theschof@cs.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86039 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 07:03:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2003 07:03:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 07:03:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2003 07:03:15 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.85 From: "LeSchof" X-Originating-IP: 64.63.223.204 X-Yahoo-Profile: LeSchof MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 07:03:14 -0000 Subject: [lojban] A first attempt at translation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 6841 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: theschof@cs.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list This is my first posting, I'm most of the way through "what is lojban" and thought I'd start experimenting. By way of introduction I am a programmer with a large interest in programming languages and their underlying paradigms, and lojban just seemed like the next step. I can't think of any practical purposes at the moment except for a vague connection with the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis that people are constrained in thought by the languages they speak; lojban has far less constraints, therefore a person who learns it would gain intelligence, and I could certainly use some more. Otherwise, it just seems like an interesting thing to keep in mind, especially in my field. As a side note, my other major interest, classical literature, gives me a source for translation materials to lojban. And lojbans' vocabulary does seem woefully underequipped in the areas of disembowling, impaling, rampaging, and archaic armarment in general-- all things which seem interesting cases for invention. I've been attempting to translate the first passages of the Iliad as a first crack at Lojban. So far what I've been able to produce is: .i o'onai .i doi fetcei ko cu sanga le go'i po'e le bersa ku ge'u ku vau Which I hope means something like: Anger. (designate goddess(es) for imperative ko) command goddess(es) to sing about the previous sentence (anger). This anger belongs (inseperably) to the son. But I'm finding more and more reasons to doubt this is actually the case. My concern is that go'i refers to the last selbri, which might in this case be the sanga, and not the o'onai. But another concern is that the o'onai appears to be a sumti-- not some 0-argument selbri-- in which case would go'i refer to it at all? If o'onai is a sumti I still couldn't use ri to refer to it because another sumti fetcei, follows it and this would be the value used instead. But all of the above aside, I would like to indicate that this is the rage of achilles-- a specific instance of son, parented by peleus; and not just the anonymous son represented here. I was thinking this would be doable with the bridi relationship below embedded: la axile'ys. bersa la pele'ys. Then I could just use le (embedded bridi) to extract x1, in this case the son-- achilles-- which would become the possessor of go'i, or anger. Although not represented in the tranlation, it is also almost a given that peleus is the father of achilles, not a gender-neutral parent-- any suggestions on a good way of representing this within the bridi? Thanks, Alexander Schofield -- Fagles' Translation Rage-- Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles, murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses, hurling down to the house of death so many sturdy souls, great fighters' souls, but made their bodies carrion, feasts for the dogs and birds, and the will of Zeus was moving toward its end. Begin, Muse, when the two first broke and clashed, Agamemnon lord of men and brilliant Achilles. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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