From lojbab@lojban.org Fri Dec 05 11:01:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55045 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2003 18:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2003 18:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao01.cox.net) (68.1.17.244) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2003 18:08:45 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org ([68.228.12.146]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031205180839.FPGU23168.lakemtao01.cox.net@bob.lojban.org> for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:08:39 -0500 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20031205124854.03d76570@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: lojbab@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:10:13 -0500 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] predict, foretell, foreknowledge, prognosis, anticipation In-Reply-To: <20031205160223.97797.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 68.1.17.244 From: Bob LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 21336 At 08:02 AM 12/5/03 -0800, xorxes wrote: >How do we deal with these concepts in Lojban? > >The problem with lujvo based on {purci} or {balvi} is that >they could go either way: is it the knowing that is in >the past of the thing known, or the other way around? >Does {purju'o} mean "x1 knows x2 about x3, which is in the >past of the knowing" or "x1 knows x2 about x3, before it >happens". Is it foreknowledge or knowledge of the past? >And the same applies to {bavju'o}: is that after-knowledge, >knowledge after the fact, or is it future-knowledge, >knowledge of the future? We could adopt a convention, >I suppose, or else look for something less ambiguous. I think jvajvo would suggest purju'o (though I think that pruju'o scores higher) x1p precedes x2p x1d knows x2d ... x1d knows x2d=x2p ... at (earlier) time/event x1p with x1b is after x2b we end up with x1d knows x2d=x1p ... at (earlier) time/event x2p which seems quite backwards. The knowledge, which is the focus of the bridi, occurs *before* the event. Another approach would be junli'e and a third approach would spurn the lujvo entirely, and express foreknowledge as "djuno ledu'u pu'o fasnu"; you are knowing the anticipation of the event (and anticipating the aftermath of an event becomes real fun). If we had rafsi for pu'o and ba'o that would make the lujvo easier, but I admit that at the time we discussed rafsi, I figured that anything pu'o would use purci and ba'o would use balvi just as the cmavo themselves were derived from those words. That was before I took jvajvo analysis seriously. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org