From xeubie@hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 18:34:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: xeubie@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98415 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2004 02:34:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2004 02:34:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2004 02:34:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2004 02:34:29 -0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:34:29 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2514 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.83 From: "la_okus" X-Originating-IP: 69.162.47.2 Subject: preposition disposition X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=170795535 X-Yahoo-Profile: la_okus X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 21599 Did you know that different languages use prepositions in=20 different ways, for different reasons, at different times? Probably,=20 but it wasn't until recently that this was made completely clear to=20 me, and wasn't until even more recently that I realized it was a=20 pretty good reason to favor lojban's predicate system. I've liked lojban for a while, mostly because it feels professional=20 and complete unlike any other conlang, but one thing that I've=20 always wondered is what advantage predicates have over the=20 usual preposition/postposition system. The prospect of using=20 se/te/ve/xe to create descriptors was enticing, but what really=20 convinced me was the idea that we could avoid the apparent=20 preposition disagreement of natural languages. Here's what I=20 mean: English =3D French _to_ the opera =3D _=E0_ l'op=E9ra. _to_ France =3D _en_ France _to_ express my feelings =3D _pour_ exprimer mes sentiments the train _to_ Paris =3D le train _de_ Paris in time _to_ the music =3D en mesure _avec_ la musique French =3D English r=EAver _=E0_ quelque chose =3D to dream _about_ something aller _=E0_ l'=E9cole =3D to go _to_ school =EAtre _=E0_ la maison =3D to be _at_ home =EAtre pay=E9 _=E0_ l'heure =3D to be paid _by_ the hour ce n'=E9st pas _=E0_ moi de le dire =3D it's not _for_ me to say il l'a fait _=E0_ sa mani=E8re =3D he did it _in_ his own way A single preposition from one language can be translated by any=20 number of prepositions from the other language. In addition,=20 some verbs that do require a preposition in English don't take=20 one in French, and vice versa. These examples are from http:// members.aol.com/sylvanz/gv16.htm, which is a page about=20 esperanto. Apparently, esperanto is just as complicated, but the=20 page argues that esperanto doesn't force you to use the right=20 preposition for each verb because it allows you to use "je", a=20 preposition with no specific meaning. Judge as you may. >From personal experience, I know that Japanese sometimes=20 disagrees with english as well. The verb "au" means to meet,=20 but the japanese don't say "I meet friends", they say "tomodachi=20 ni au", which is more like "I meet to friends". Would you agree that lojban avoids this problem? Of course you=20 would. I'm just making this thread because I'm bored, so take it=20 wherever you want. I want to attend this board more often=20 because I've decided to officially join the project (however that is=20 done). co'o mi'e okus