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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@webjockey.net>
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:53:54 -0500
Subject: [lojban] Re: preposition disposition
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On Thursday 19 February 2004 21:34, la_okus wrote:
> Did you know that different languages use prepositions in
> different ways, for different reasons, at different times? Probably,
> but it wasn't until recently that this was made completely clear to
> me, and wasn't until even more recently that I realized it was a
> pretty good reason to favor lojban's predicate system.

Lojban brivla aren't entirely consistent either. For instance, all verbs of 
measurement take the thing being measured in first place and the number in 
second, but the standard is not always in third - for {mitre} it's in fourth.

> I've liked lojban for a while, mostly because it feels professional
> and complete unlike any other conlang, but one thing that I've
> always wondered is what advantage predicates have over the
> usual preposition/postposition system. The prospect of using
> se/te/ve/xe to create descriptors was enticing, but what really
> convinced me was the idea that we could avoid the apparent
> preposition disagreement of natural languages. Here's what I
> mean:
>
> English	=	French
>
> _to_ the opera	= 	_à_ l'opéra.
> _to_ France	= 	_en_ France
> _to_ express my feelings	=	_pour_ exprimer mes sentiments
> the train _to_ Paris	=	le train _de_ Paris
> in time _to_ the music	=	en mesure _avec_ la musique
>
> French	=	English
>
> rêver _à_ quelque chose	=	to dream _about_ something
> aller _à_ l'école 	=	to go _to_ school
> être _à_ la maison 	=	to be _at_ home
> être payé _à_ l'heure	=	to be paid _by_ the hour
> ce n'ést pas _à_ moi de le dire 	=	it's not _for_ me to say
> il l'a fait _à_ sa manière 	=	he did it _in_ his own way
>
> A single preposition from one language can be translated by any
> number of prepositions from the other language. In addition,
> some verbs that do require a preposition in English don't take
> one in French, and vice versa. These examples are from
> http://members.aol.com/sylvanz/gv16.htm, which is a page about
> esperanto. Apparently, esperanto is just as complicated, but the
> page argues that esperanto doesn't force you to use the right
> preposition for each verb because it allows you to use "je",
> a
> preposition with no specific meaning. Judge as you may.
>
> From personal experience, I know that Japanese sometimes
> disagrees with english as well. The verb "au" means to meet,
> but the japanese don't say "I meet friends", they say
> "tomodachi
> ni au", which is more like "I meet to friends".
>
> Would you agree that lojban avoids this problem? Of course you
> would. I'm just making this thread because I'm bored, so take
> it
> wherever you want. I want to attend this board more often
> because I've decided to officially join the project (however that
> is
> done).

Lojban's answer to the problem (besides the predicate) is to have lots of 
specific prepositions. There are about 200 prepositions ("grep BAI CMAVO|wc" 
says 212, but a few of those are constructions like "ki'unai" and "mu'i 
ma?"), each of which (except {do'e}, which means "je") has a specific meaning 
derived from a place of a brivla. Then there are tense markers, which behave 
in some constructions like prepositions. Some are redundant (e.g. {mau} means 
about the  same as {seme'a}, and some a bit too specific (I've thought of 
saying {bau le fu'arka} for "in runic", though that's an alphabet, not a 
language), but overall, they're a pretty good match.

phma


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