From xod@thestonecutters.net Thu Mar 11 08:11:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 499 invoked from network); 11 Mar 2004 16:11:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Mar 2004 16:11:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Mar 2004 16:11:20 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.30) id 1B1SlU-0003KG-VE for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:10:32 -0800 Received: from dsl081-049-134.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([64.81.49.134] helo=chain.digitalkingdom.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B1Skf-0003Cb-9L; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:09:41 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from thestonecutters.net ([63.251.19.112] helo=chert.thestonecutters.net) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B1SkW-0003BZ-F2 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:09:32 -0800 Received: from thestonecutters.net (p78-77.acedsl.com [66.114.78.77]) by chert.thestonecutters.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63728148005 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:07:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40508F37.5080006@thestonecutters.net> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:09:27 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031013 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <200403110048.08692.phma@webjockey.net> In-Reply-To: <200403110048.08692.phma@webjockey.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 7202 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: xod@thestonecutters.net X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 From: xod Reply-To: xod@thestonecutters.net Subject: [lojban] Re: pronouncing =?windows-1252?Q?=91?= as th X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=110189215 X-Yahoo-Profile: throwing_back_the_apple X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 21677 Pierre Abbat wrote: >On Wednesday 10 March 2004 23:40, la_okus wrote: > > >>The usual pronunciation of the omnipresent apostrophe has >>been described as the airy glide between the words "oh hello". I, >>as an American English speaker, find this to take too long and >>too much energy to say. The result is that ugly lujvo like ba'orzu'e >>sort of split apart and get pronounced as BA'orZU'e, being >>stressed in two places. >> >>Then I read on the wiki that .kreig.daniyl. pronounces it as `th' in >>`think'. I find that this sound can be made much more quickly, >>allowing me to zip over the "ba'o" of ba'orzu'e to make ba'orZU'e. >>As a side effect, my lojban sounds a lot more like tolkien's >>beautiful elvish languages. I realize that many people cannot >>make this sound, which is why lojban's designers did good to >>allow many alternative pronunciations. I am trying to invent some >>airy version of the `th' sound so as to minimize the weirdness >>when talking to other lojbanists. >> >> > >I can pronounce /bahorzuhe/ faster than /baŝorzuŝe/. /h/ requires only a flick >of the vocal cords between the vowels; /ŝ/ requires moving the tongue. I even >pronounce {fu'arka} with /h/, though etymologically it should have /ŝ/. > > Right. I can't imagine what sort of accent or dialect would find ŝ easier than h. It's hard enough for me to comprehend spoken Lojban; this modification would make it even more difficult. >I am making this thread to ask what you all think of my decision. >Will lojban split into an assortment of accents, and if so, won't >this happen anyway when lojban gains more speakers outside >the US? Mind you that the lojban r is not limited to the American >English pronunciation, but also the trilled or french r. > > > >I pronounce Lojban "r" as a trill, except when it's vocalic. > > Untrilled r tends to pollute the following vowel. -- "The war was supposed to be quick. We were supposed to be greeted as liberators. It was to pay for itself with oil revenues. And we were supposed to find chemical and biological weapons." Col. Sam Gardiner USAF-retired, National Defense University