From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Apr 09 13:51:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48838 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2004 20:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Apr 2004 20:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2004 20:51:11 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BC2xy-00032x-4v for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:51:10 -0700 Received: from dsl081-049-134.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([64.81.49.134] helo=chain.digitalkingdom.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BC2wg-0002w2-QR; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:49:50 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BC2wY-0002vq-SP for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:49:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:49:42 -0700 Message-ID: <20040409204942.GU14789@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20040409185727.GN14789@digitalkingdom.org> <20040409203226.44018.qmail@web41906.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040409203226.44018.qmail@web41906.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-archive-position: 7521 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell Reply-To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Official parser and "lo ni'a zu crino" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 21995 On Fri, Apr 09, 2004 at 01:32:26PM -0700, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 09, 2004 at 10:48:46AM -0700, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > --- jcowan@reutershealth.com wrote: > > > > > > > > I will not support, however, any structural changes that *could* > > > > be made as a result of going to infinite-lookahead grammar: no > > > > A/JA merger, e.g. For one thing, human beings don't support > > > > infinite lookahead. But I am okay with accepting things like > > > > "le broda joi le brodi", since that is not truly an ambiguity > > > > but just the result of smarter resolution of elidable > > > > terminators than Yacc allows. > > > > > > Isn't that self-contradictory? Why is infinite-lookahead > > > acceptable for JOI but not for JE? > > > > Because JA/A is formalized in the grammar; elidable terminators are > > not. > > Is JOI formalized in the grammar? Absolutely. That's not relevant. > If yes, how does {lo broda je lo brode} require infinite-lookahead but > {lo broda joi lo brode} does not? I'm afraid I don't understand what > the problem would be. lo broda joi lo brode *does* require infinite lookahead. The point that you seem to be missing is that "lo broda joi lo brode" requires infinite lookahead only to insert the elidable terminators, i.e. to read it as "lo broda ku joi lo brode ku". The function of elidable terminators has (until now) never been formalized. It was never part of the official grammar (grammar.300) because it is (probably) no possible to make a CFG that encodes that sort of thing. The difference between "lo broda joi lo brode" and "lo broda je lo brode" is that the latter is an actual change to the language, as defined by grammar.300, grammar.bnf, and the reference grammar. The former contradicts none of those documents (as far as I know; if I'm wrong, show me where). The former is a distinction that makes no difference, the latter is not. I'll grant you that neither change invalidates past usage (at least, the JA change can be made to not do so), but one is obviously more extreme than the other. Last I checked, the LLG was still trying to maintain some form of constancy to the language so that people could actually learn it. I still consider this worthwhile. You obviously don't. So we're kind of stuck with agreeing to disagree, AFAICT. -Robin -- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** I'm a *male* Robin. "Many philosophical problems are caused by such things as the simple inability to shut up." -- David Stove, liberally paraphrased. http://www.lojban.org/ *** loi pimlu na srana .i ti rocki morsi