Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76167 invoked from network); 30 May 2004 18:46:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 May 2004 18:46:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 May 2004 18:46:11 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.32) id 1BUVJa-0003ts-Vc for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 30 May 2004 11:45:47 -0700 Received: from dsl081-049-134.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([64.81.49.134] helo=chain.digitalkingdom.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BUVIv-0003tO-AU; Sun, 30 May 2004 11:45:05 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 30 May 2004 11:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.32) id 1BUVIj-0003tD-9B for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 30 May 2004 11:44:53 -0700 Received: from grand-central-station.mit.edu (GRAND-CENTRAL-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.82]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id i4UIio9a028904 for ; Sun, 30 May 2004 14:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by grand-central-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id i4UIinqV028921 for ; Sun, 30 May 2004 14:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torg.mit.edu (TORG.MIT.EDU [18.208.0.57]) ) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id i4UIinRg006506 for ; Sun, 30 May 2004 14:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rob by torg.mit.edu with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BUVJ1-0005ah-00 for ; Sun, 30 May 2004 14:45:11 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:45:11 -0400 Message-ID: <20040530184511.GA21387@mit.edu> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Is-It-Not-Nifty: www.sluggy.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-archive-position: 8000 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rspeer@MIT.EDU X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-From: Rob Speer From: Rob Speer Reply-To: rspeer@MIT.EDU Subject: [lojban] Forget XS, let's go back to XS. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 22456 Content-Length: 1639 Lines: 50 There was a point where I thought I understood XS, and why it wouldn't break anything anywhere. Judging from what xorxes is claiming about XS in the thread between him and pycyn, it's past that now. It seems that there are three problems that need to be solved: 1. Nobody knows what the hell {lo} means, especially not the writers who have used it. 2. Lojban has no intensional article. 3. No existing article makes sense in front of {du'u} or {ka}, or in many situations, {nu}. And XS right now is trying to solve all of them in one fell swoop. As I understand it, it's saying: "{lo} is defined as the intensional article, and it already means everything you want it to mean." Discussion is showing that people are finding the second part hard to swallow. I know I am. As I heard XS explained to me last week, it was this: "{lo} is an unspecified article." This means that {lo} could be intensional or extensional, specific or general, whatever makes sense in context. This easily solves 1 and 3, and deals halfway with 2. It also has the advantage of not invalidating any usage at all. Then, all we need is a different intensional article. I'll call it {lo'e} for now, especially since I don't see why {lo'e} doesn't work. Then, you can use {lo'e} when you specifically want an intensional article, {su'o} when you specifically want the old {lo}, and {lo} when it really doesn't matter. This can even be clarified with quantifiers and stuff, so that {lo ci gerku} and {mu lo vo cilre} still work the nice way. So, basically, I'm re-proposing what I thought was XS. Any comments? -- Rob Speer