From lojbab@lojban.org Sat May 01 04:47:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42255 invoked from network); 1 May 2004 11:47:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2004 11:47:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakermmtao11.cox.net) (68.230.240.28) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2004 11:47:45 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org ([68.228.12.146]) by lakermmtao11.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20040501114739.TTGY18803.lakermmtao11.cox.net@bob.lojban.org> for ; Sat, 1 May 2004 07:47:39 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040501073407.03b98d90@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: lojbab@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:40 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20040501001701.38275.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200404302000.15455.phma@webjockey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 68.230.240.28 From: Bob LeChevalier Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Why capital letters standing in for letterals is a *bad* idea. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 22086 At 05:17 PM 4/30/04 -0700, Jorge "Llamb=EDas" wrote: >--- Pierre Abbat wrote: > > There are fixed rules for breaking syllables between vowels, but AFAIK = not > > between consonants. There are. From the old morphology paper: >Medial consonant pairs are split into separate syllables by=20 >convention. They will thus be pronounced as /...vC,Cv.../. It will take= =20 >some time, but try to practice each of these permissible medials with a=20 >vowel preceding and following, such as abda, abda, abga, etc. ... >Consonant triples can occur medially in lujvo, in le'avla, and in=20 >cmene. When they occur in lujvo or brivla, they are pronounced with the=20 >first consonant appended to the syllable preceding the cluster:=20 >/...vC,CCv.../. In Lojbanized names, pronunciation and syllabication of=20 >triples is not constrained. > >It can be seen that the first two consonants of a consonant triple in a=20 >Lojban brivla must be restricted as for permissible medial consonant=20 >pairs: they must be on the list above. The second pair within the triple= =20 >must be a permissible initial consonant pair, as per the list above. In=20 >addition, there are a few triples that meet the above conditions but are=20 >still not pronounceable so as to be easily and uniquely resolvable from=20 >other combinations. Hence they are also not permitted. ... >A word has a syllable for each of its vowels (V), diphthongs (vv), and/or= =20 >vocalic (syllabic) consonants. The last syllable in a word is the ultima;= =20 >the next-to-last is the penult, or penultimate syllable. The=20 >third-from-last is called the antepenult or antepenultimate syllable. The= =20 >point at which two syllables meet is a syllable joint. If a syllable=20 >joint occurs between two vowels (V'V), it is called a vowel joint. If the= =20 >syllable joint occurs between two consonants (C/C or C/CC), it is called a= =20 >consonant joint. Vowel/consonant joints (V/C) are also=20 >possible. Unseparated consonants (CC or CCC) are called consonant cluster= s. > >In Lojban words, syllabication is determined by the medial consonants. A= =20 >single medial consonant starts a new syllable (a V/C joint). A consonant= =20 >pair is split into two syllables in Lojban words, although it is=20 >acceptable to keep a permissible initial together in the second=20 >syllable. Consonant triples are split as C/CC joints. > >It is permissible to vary from these rules in Lojbanized names. For=20 >example, there are no definitive rules for syllabication of such cmene=20 >with consonant clusters longer than three, such as the English name=20 >armstrong, which we will analyze below. The close-comma is used to=20 >indicate variant syllabication both orthography. > >An additional syllable split can be found wherever a V'V disyllable=20 >occurs; however, diphthongs are never split into multiple syllables. > >y, r, and n occasionally occur as audible hyphens (attaching sounds)=20 >between word components. When these sounds serve as the central vowel of= =20 >a syllable (r and n being pronounced vocalically), the syllable does not=20 >count in determining stress per the method described below. (This=20 >principle applies to all vocalic central vowels, including l and m, and is= =20 >not limited to occasions where these five letters (y, l, m, n and r) are=20 >used as hyphens. On the other hand, r and n hyphens ARE permitted to be=20 >joined to a prior vowel syllable, in which case they are pronounced as=20 >consonants and not vocalics; this syllable IS counted in stress=20 >determination, since the hyphen is not the central vowel. The consonant=20 >or consonant pair after the hyphen then starts a new syllable. (These=20 >hyphens will be defined more completely in Section II when lujvo are=20 >discussed.) ---------------------------------------------------------- > Thus {tciuaua} is /tciu,AU,a/, > >Is there any way to represent a triphthong, or is {uau} necessarily >two syllables, either /ua,u/ or /u,au/? In Lojban, vowel groups pair from the left if possible, unless there is a=20 close-comma. So "uau" is "ua,u". However, I believe that later decision=20 when we tried to write the morphology algorithm said that use of=20 close-commas do not create a minimal pair, so "ua,u" and "u,au" are the=20 same word. lojbab --=20 lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org