From lojbab@lojban.org Mon May 10 13:48:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31472 invoked from network); 10 May 2004 20:48:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 May 2004 20:48:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakermmtao05.cox.net) (68.230.240.34) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 May 2004 20:48:46 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org ([68.228.12.146]) by lakermmtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20040510204839.XGYJ18641.lakermmtao05.cox.net@bob.lojban.org> for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:48:39 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040510163139.036f8aa0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: lojbab@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:47:06 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20040510182426.93603.qmail@web41907.mail.yahoo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 68.230.240.34 From: Bob LeChevalier Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: loglan/lojban masses/sets X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 22230 At 11:24 AM 5/10/04 -0700, Jorge "Llamb=EDas" wrote: >Loglan "lea", the gigantic individual, is probably >Lojban's {piro loi}, the whole mass. Not recalling how things have evolved in the last 15 years, but lea, when=20 first added to TLI Loglan, meant EXACTLY Lojban "ro lo ro", and was used=20 for universal claims about veridical entities. Lojban lo was in a sense=20 back derived from lea, once pc explained what "veridical" meant. >Loglan "lo" is what And once described as "the myopic >singularizer", all the individuals considered as one >individual (not added together as with "lea" but all >superposed into one). For a long time I used Lojban >{lo'e} for this as a generic. But now I am using Lojban >{lo}, thus returning to the origins in some sense. > >Loglan does not have anything equivalent to {lo} >as {su'o lo}. For that it simply uses the equivalent >of {su'o broda}. ba jia broda, IIRC (Lojban equivalent "da poi broda") was the closest TLI=20 Loglan equivalent to lo broda. >As far as I know it doesn't have anything like lo'e/le'e >either. It has loe which of used at various times for both Lojban lo'e and le'e > > Comparing our languages we have stuck with the articles/descriptors. > > In particular, I wonder how can I translate from Loglan to Lojban > > {Focu mrenu} --- a quartet of persons? Is it {lo'i vo prenu} or > > something else? > >With my current understanding, I'd say {lo vo prenu} for the generic >case (as in "this is meant to be played by a quartet") or >{le vo prenu} if you have a particular quartet in mind. prenu vomei, with conversion to select the appropriate place of the mei=20 selbri depending on whether you want a set, mass, or individuals. TLI masses were covered by loi and lei with the quantifiers on the latter=20 covering the two senses of the "two men carrying the log across the field. lojbab --=20 lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org