From jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Wed Jul 28 06:43:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79036 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2004 13:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Jul 2004 13:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 2004 13:43:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.32) id 1Bpohg-0000HX-RQ for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:42:44 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Bpogv-0000GD-Sq; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:41:58 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web41904.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Bpogg-0000FR-BI for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:41:43 -0700 Message-ID: <20040728134106.54081.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.49.74.2] by web41904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:41:06 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:41:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00de01c47427$41e6ae40$fd3f0751@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 8347 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 From: Jorge "Llambías" Reply-To: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Subject: [lojban] Re: Test sentences X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=142311107 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 22768 And: > "Cicero is Tully" is sensitive to intensional contexts (e.g. > as x2 of "believe"). Lojban can capture opaque & transparent > readings when brivla are involved, but not when cmene are > involved. Cmene are like {le} gadri, and are insensitive > to intensional contexts. Right, because la and le are always the name/description according to the speaker. So {la kikeron du la tulius} means "the one I call 'Cicero' is also the one I call 'Tully'", but {la djan na krici lo du'u la kikeron du la tulius} means "Of the one I call both 'Cicero' and 'Tully', John does not believe it is self-identical", which is not what we want to say. Perhaps we can say: {la djan na krici lo du'u lu'e zo kikeron du lu'e zo tulius}, "John does not believe that the referent of 'Cicero' is also the referent of 'Tully'", assuming the brivla behind {lu'e} is within the scope of John's belief. mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail