From a.rosta@v21.me.uk Wed Jul 28 12:23:56 2004
Return-Path: <a.rosta@v21.me.uk>
X-Sender: a.rosta@v21.me.uk
X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 89782 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2004 19:23:54 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166)
  by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Jul 2004 19:23:54 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk) (62.41.128.20)
  by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 2004 19:23:54 -0000
Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-58-205.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.58.205])
	by heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i6SIdQe10933
	for <lojban@yahoogroups.com>; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:39:26 +0100
Message-ID: <015901c474d8$6bca6240$fd3f0751@oemcomputer>
To: <lojban@yahoogroups.com>
References: <20040728134106.54081.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:23:30 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 62.41.128.20
From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@v21.me.uk>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Test sentences
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=175222075
X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin
X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 22770

xorxes:
> And:
> > "Cicero is Tully" is sensitive to intensional contexts (e.g.
> > as x2 of "believe"). Lojban can capture opaque & transparent
> > readings when brivla are involved, but not when cmene are
> > involved. Cmene are like {le} gadri, and are insensitive
> > to intensional contexts.
> 
> Right, because la and le are always the name/description
> according to the speaker.
> 
> So {la kikeron du la tulius} means "the one I call 'Cicero'
> is also the one I call 'Tully'", but {la djan na krici
> lo du'u la kikeron du la tulius} means "Of the one
> I call both 'Cicero' and 'Tully', John does not believe
> it is self-identical", which is not what we want to say.
> 
> Perhaps we can say: {la djan na krici lo du'u lu'e zo kikeron
> du lu'e zo tulius}, "John does not believe that the referent
> of 'Cicero' is also the referent of 'Tully'", assuming the
> brivla behind {lu'e} is within the scope of John's belief.

Who knows -- it depends on what {lu'e} ends up meaning, &
a load of other conventions yet to be settled. But as I said,
Lojban can definitely capture the relevant distinction by
using brivla ("du zei kikeron", say) instead of cmene.

--And.